Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management
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@Nick-Carthew said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
I’m sure that you’ll begin to enjoy the new look...
Not likely. The icon set in the balloons fails on the best practice front for icon design. They are way too busy visually, so the user now has an increased cognitive load to make sense of them. A user shouldn't have to work hard to understand what an icon means. Good icon design is about clear and simple communication. These new icons are a step in the opposite direction
@Ben-Craig I agree.
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If I'm understanding the update correctly the hand icon is a via and the original balloon is a stop, why then is the icon at the beginning and end of a route a hand that you cannot change, my thoughts are the beginning and end icons should be balloons with hands inbetween other than designated stops i.e balloons.
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If I'm understanding the update correctly the hand icon is a via and the original balloon is a stop, why then is the icon at the beginning and end of a route a hand that you cannot change, my thoughts are the beginning and end icons should be balloons with hands inbetween other than designated stops i.e balloons.
@speedup100 said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
If I'm understanding the update correctly the hand icon is a via and the original balloon is a stop, why then is the icon at the beginning and end of a route a hand that you cannot change, my thoughts are the beginning and end icons should be balloons with hands inbetween other than designated stops i.e balloons.
@speedup100 It’s the other way round. The hand icon is for stop waypoints and balloons are for via ones. The first and last WPs are automatically added as stops. You will notice that each time you add a WP to a route it will show as a hand and change to a balloon when you add the next one.
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Confusing, for one thing I've no idea what shaping is which seems to be something connected with Garmin whereas I use tomtom. That said if you already have a balloon icon on a route and click on it you are offered the option to turn it into a via which becomes a hand, so that says to me it in now not a stop.
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I like the new waypoint icons. They are very simple to both understand and use, even just a day after being introduced. Gary.
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Confusing, for one thing I've no idea what shaping is which seems to be something connected with Garmin whereas I use tomtom. That said if you already have a balloon icon on a route and click on it you are offered the option to turn it into a via which becomes a hand, so that says to me it in now not a stop.
@speedup100 said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
Confusing, for one thing I've no idea what shaping is which seems to be something connected with Garmin whereas I use tomtom. That said if you already have a balloon icon on a route and click on it you are offered the option to turn it into a via which becomes a hand, so that says to me it in now not a stop.
@speedup100. I’m a TomTom user too. From what I gather Garmins work slightly differently to TTs. When you add stop
points the Garmin has to pass that WP but it is more flexible with the via balloon WPs and may take you on a slightly different route to the next stop point depending on conditions. The hand icon is definitely a stop point.Always willing to help if I can.
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@speedup100 said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
Confusing, for one thing I've no idea what shaping is which seems to be something connected with Garmin whereas I use tomtom. That said if you already have a balloon icon on a route and click on it you are offered the option to turn it into a via which becomes a hand, so that says to me it in now not a stop.
@speedup100. I’m a TomTom user too. From what I gather Garmins work slightly differently to TTs. When you add stop
points the Garmin has to pass that WP but it is more flexible with the via balloon WPs and may take you on a slightly different route to the next stop point depending on conditions. The hand icon is definitely a stop point.@Nick-Carthew But the prompt says ‘via’ when you hover over the icon menu. I used to have a TT but have swapped to a Garmin Zumo XT; familiar with both systems and so the differing terminologies may cause confusion. Personally, I would like to see the prompt say “stop’ as I would agree with @speedup100 that the ‘via’ terminology does appear confusing. Also, Waypoints and shaping points (alerting and non-alerting) are Garmin terms that could add further confusion to TT users. A ‘via’, to me, does tend to indicate a shaping point and so I would prefer to see the term ‘Stop’ used which could be applied to any waypoint (shaping point).
Another term I have seen is a ‘reporting point’ but I can see this becoming horribly confusing. It certainly was an education when I moved from Garmin to TT, and then back to Garmin with how points are termed and used/behave within the different systems.
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@speedup100 said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
Confusing, for one thing I've no idea what shaping is which seems to be something connected with Garmin whereas I use tomtom. That said if you already have a balloon icon on a route and click on it you are offered the option to turn it into a via which becomes a hand, so that says to me it in now not a stop.
@speedup100. I’m a TomTom user too. From what I gather Garmins work slightly differently to TTs. When you add stop
points the Garmin has to pass that WP but it is more flexible with the via balloon WPs and may take you on a slightly different route to the next stop point depending on conditions. The hand icon is definitely a stop point.@Nick-Carthew said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
@speedup100 said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
Confusing, for one thing I've no idea what shaping is which seems to be something connected with Garmin whereas I use tomtom. That said if you already have a balloon icon on a route and click on it you are offered the option to turn it into a via which becomes a hand, so that says to me it in now not a stop.
@speedup100. I’m a TomTom user too. From what I gather Garmins work slightly differently to TTs. When you add stop
points the Garmin has to pass that WP but it is more flexible with the via balloon WPs and may take you on a slightly different route to the next stop point depending on conditions. The hand icon is definitely a stop point.Hi Nick, I think the confusing bit is that hovering over a balloon brings up the word via which when you click on it, it becomes a hand which by its image indicates stop but by the fact you clicked the word via gives the opposite impression, confuses me anyway. I also think MRA have made a mistake in introducing a Garmin word "Shaping" to a generalised route planner. What's wrong with stop, it's almost an international word, it even appears on foreign road signs.
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I like the new waypoint icons. They are very simple to both understand and use, even just a day after being introduced. Gary.
@Gary-France I agree, I also think we should be prepared to adapt to a new situation otherwise there is absolutely no incentive to introduce new features no matter how usefulo these would be.
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@Nick-Carthew said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
@speedup100 said in Revert to old icons for way points and waypoint management:
Confusing, for one thing I've no idea what shaping is which seems to be something connected with Garmin whereas I use tomtom. That said if you already have a balloon icon on a route and click on it you are offered the option to turn it into a via which becomes a hand, so that says to me it in now not a stop.
@speedup100. I’m a TomTom user too. From what I gather Garmins work slightly differently to TTs. When you add stop
points the Garmin has to pass that WP but it is more flexible with the via balloon WPs and may take you on a slightly different route to the next stop point depending on conditions. The hand icon is definitely a stop point.Hi Nick, I think the confusing bit is that hovering over a balloon brings up the word via which when you click on it, it becomes a hand which by its image indicates stop but by the fact you clicked the word via gives the opposite impression, confuses me anyway. I also think MRA have made a mistake in introducing a Garmin word "Shaping" to a generalised route planner. What's wrong with stop, it's almost an international word, it even appears on foreign road signs.
Hi Nick, I think the confusing bit is that hovering over a balloon brings up the word via which when you click on it, it becomes a hand which by its image indicates stop but by the fact you clicked the word via gives the opposite impression, confuses me anyway. I also think MRA have made a mistake in introducing a Garmin word "Shaping" to a generalised route planner. What's wrong with stop, it's almost an international word, it even appears on foreign road signs.
I agree, seems like an easy thign to solve for the developers. STOP would be a better word.
Instead of "shaping" maybe use "way".
It is not difficult, it is easy, it's a hobby
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Hi Nick, I think the confusing bit is that hovering over a balloon brings up the word via which when you click on it, it becomes a hand which by its image indicates stop but by the fact you clicked the word via gives the opposite impression, confuses me anyway. I also think MRA have made a mistake in introducing a Garmin word "Shaping" to a generalised route planner. What's wrong with stop, it's almost an international word, it even appears on foreign road signs.
I agree, seems like an easy thign to solve for the developers. STOP would be a better word.
Instead of "shaping" maybe use "way".
@speedup100 and @Drabslab Yes, indeed it is confusing and your thoughts will be passed on. Thanks
Always willing to help if I can.
Triumph Tiger 1200 XRT called Tina.
MRA Navigation Next and SilverFox B8J bar buttons.
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@speedup100 and @Drabslab Yes, indeed it is confusing and your thoughts will be passed on. Thanks
@Nick-Carthew These are small things really, call it finetuning.
but important nevertheless.Thanks for passing it on :-)By the way, I think that we should have a wiki next to the forum as reference manual for this evolving tool.
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Hello everyone,
Just jumping in here to share some of the design concerns relating to the wording of "Via" and "Stop".
First of all, for all international (non-Dutch) purposes we are considering using "Shaping" and "Via" as the only words available to pick from. Additionally, we're not aiming to make this a Garmin-specific feature, but for the initial release this was the easiest to implement. We want to show TomTom and Smartphone users a distinct difference between Shaping- and Via-points as well.
As for the naming convention and the specific choice to no longer go with "Stop". There's a lot of synonyms for this functionality available, for example some talk about "Stopping points", places that you absolutely have to stop at. Others talk about "Hard points", allegorically expressing how there's points that you won't notice if you skip them as "soft" and points that have to be visited as "Hard". Please understand that we've thought hard about what word would be best fitting and that we remain open to the idea that there are better definitions for these points.
Linguistically though, the word "Shaping point" and "via point" are of all available words the most accurate. A "shaping point" does exactly that, it generally shapes a route that will be followed by navigation system in a flexible manner. Via points also describe what they are, they are points "via which" you must travel. Explained, this does make sense. But again, we remain open for discussion on this subject.
Kind regards,
Timo
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Hello everyone,
Just jumping in here to share some of the design concerns relating to the wording of "Via" and "Stop".
First of all, for all international (non-Dutch) purposes we are considering using "Shaping" and "Via" as the only words available to pick from. Additionally, we're not aiming to make this a Garmin-specific feature, but for the initial release this was the easiest to implement. We want to show TomTom and Smartphone users a distinct difference between Shaping- and Via-points as well.
As for the naming convention and the specific choice to no longer go with "Stop". There's a lot of synonyms for this functionality available, for example some talk about "Stopping points", places that you absolutely have to stop at. Others talk about "Hard points", allegorically expressing how there's points that you won't notice if you skip them as "soft" and points that have to be visited as "Hard". Please understand that we've thought hard about what word would be best fitting and that we remain open to the idea that there are better definitions for these points.
Linguistically though, the word "Shaping point" and "via point" are of all available words the most accurate. A "shaping point" does exactly that, it generally shapes a route that will be followed by navigation system in a flexible manner. Via points also describe what they are, they are points "via which" you must travel. Explained, this does make sense. But again, we remain open for discussion on this subject.
Kind regards,
Timo
@Timo-Martosatiman-MRA In all honesty, this is a bit trivial in my opinion, I can live with any word as long as it is decently defined and explained. And maybe it is the consequence of a surprise release that there is no detailed release note or documentation available? Or Am I being blind again?
I would repeat my suggestion for a user managed wiki here but that would also become boring
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I agree with drabslab that a wiki detailing the changes with release 1.1 would have been useful, for example a mention to say that Stops would now be called Shaping would have saved some confusion, the 1.1 release was just dropped in without any explanations.
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I agree with drabslab that a wiki detailing the changes with release 1.1 would have been useful, for example a mention to say that Stops would now be called Shaping would have saved some confusion, the 1.1 release was just dropped in without any explanations.
@speedup100 said: the 1.1 release was just dropped in without any explanations.
True, but it was very welcome nevertheless.
Change managment is a subject on its own. Documentation is usually one of the last considerations, and has the habit of becoming outdated very fast.
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Really great to see new features to expand the usability of the software, however, I'm also a little frustrated at this release as a Garmin user. By default it appears that only the start and finish points are set as "announced way points" and all the in between points are automatically "shaping points". I don't like using "shaping points". I know I can go and change each point to get my desired route all as "announced way points" but this is a real ball ache especially on long routes and time consuming. An option to set the default behaviour of points so we have a choice rather than be forced one way or the other would be preferable.
As a workaround, would I be correct in saying that if I were to just export to GPX1.0 format, all points are automatically "announced way points" as 1.0 doesn't support "shaping points"?
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Really great to see new features to expand the usability of the software, however, I'm also a little frustrated at this release as a Garmin user. By default it appears that only the start and finish points are set as "announced way points" and all the in between points are automatically "shaping points". I don't like using "shaping points". I know I can go and change each point to get my desired route all as "announced way points" but this is a real ball ache especially on long routes and time consuming. An option to set the default behaviour of points so we have a choice rather than be forced one way or the other would be preferable.
As a workaround, would I be correct in saying that if I were to just export to GPX1.0 format, all points are automatically "announced way points" as 1.0 doesn't support "shaping points"?
@Will-Brooks said: By default it appears that only the start and finish points are set as "announced way points" and all the in between points are automatically "shaping points".
Please don’t introduce another term for the Stop/Via waypoint argument
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Have been playing about and to answer my own question it appears that if I save a route as GPX 1.0 then all points in MRA planner default to "announced way points" or via points - whatever terminology you wish to use
The Beta GPX 1.1 works well for shaping points on my Garmin XT and behaves as you would expect. The standard GPX 1.1 (Route, track and POI) just draws straight lines, but the old trick of changing the route calculation in the Garmin from fastest to shortest and then back to fastest makes it behave like the Beta GPX 1.1 (One caveat - I've only tried it on a very short simple route with 7 points)
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I noticed today the the default waypoint icon has changed from a pin to what looks a little bit like a hand. And when you click the way point, the balloon now shows a bunch of redesigned icons which seem to have been lifted straight out of Windows 95 or some other app of that era!
The old icon set was more modern, cleaner, and more useful. Is there a configuration setting to revert to the old icons. If not, can there be please? This update has reduced usability and the visual identify of the app, not improved it.
I completely agree with your feedback, espacially regarding lack of usabiliy of the new icons. This is in particular true for the way point icon: the old icon was easy to place exactly on the road where you want to drive, the new icon is always off the route, so that I always need to move the icon on the road after I have placed it.
My minimum requirement is to be able to configure in my settings if I want to use the old or the new style. The new style is - my personal opinion - not even pretty, but a very rough design.
But most important: Nice looking is not the same as usability! It should be much easier for users to do the most frequent use case which is to plan a route by setting way points where they shall be - not on a minor street next to it!
So strong like for Ben's feedback from my end!
Freddy
