GPX Versions 1.1 vs 1.2 for Garmin Visually Explained

Mzokk

Have you tried riding gpx1.2 and going off route to see what happens with auto recalculation turned on? In my experience the XT unit routes using it's own logic to the next via/stop waypoint or to the end of you only have shaping points. Hence my suggestion to turn it off. That said I only use the XT as a backup and for tracks and proximity alerted POI's these days. Maybe something has changed? I'll test it again on the road and report back.

Steve Jarrell

Yes, actually I have. It was quite annoying as it did keep trying to get me back on the route (magenta line) and I didn't want to go back quite yet. Let me know what happens in your testing!

I normally keep recalculation turned off as if I get off route it's normally on purpose and I prefer to find my own way back.

Mzokk

@Steve-Jarrell Hi Steve so you have been testing using a Garmin Zumo XT3 and I have been using an XT though no longer for routing. I have no issue with using GPX 1.2 over GPX 1.1 BUT think it is essential with the XT, at least, to turn off auto recalculation, if you use GPX 1.2.

In operation GPX 1.1 in MRA works in a similar way to routes created in Basecamp on the XT. I have 5 old Garmin units a 2004 Streetpilot 2610, a 2011 BMW Nav IV (Zumo 660) and A Zumo 340 and 390, as well as a Zumo XT Purchased in 2022. And started using Garmin Mapsource, and later Basecamp route planning software. I still use Basecamp for handling tracks, and Basecamp/Garmin POI loader for dealing with POI’s and the information contained therein, as basecamp does this, and MRA either doesn’t do it at all (track joining/splitting editing) or does it in a more limited way (POI handling). MyRoute app USP for me was being able to create/edit routes on the fly while on tour without having to carry a Windows device for using Basecamp my phone or an I pad would suffice. As the navigation app has developed this has become my primary navigation tool as its less of a faff quite frankly than using a “modern” Zumo and works well with the AA screen of my Africa Twin Adventure Sport.

For old Garmin units up until the Zumo 340/90 and the 590. The routing logic of Basecamp and the units matched closely meaning that if you had set Basecamp to route “Faster Time”, and had the same settings and avoidances set on the Garmin unit, then what you planned on Basecamp was more or less WYSIWYG with what instructions the unit produced for navigation.
I retired in 2022 and my wife bought me a Zumo XT as an “upgrade” from my beloved Zumo 340 and 390. (I still use these on my 2002 R1150GS). The Zumo XT has a lovely screen but the attendant online software “Explore” is poor and the routing logic drove me nuts until I sussed what was going on. The XT has a number of issues that still might not be fully resolved with the XT2 or XT3?

Routing logic…..Faster time now means faster roads. So, routes that would have been followed if transferred from basecamp to a Zumo 390 aren’t. Yellow track, magenta route.

In this case it can be fixed by placing a shaping point on the B128. If using Basecamp or MRA for that matter many more shaping points are required to pin the route to the desired roads compared to the older units. I find this particularly irksome as Ireland is cris crossed by loads of minor roads that are my preferred routes.

The problem above makes the Zumo XT pretty useless as an A-B navigation device as it will go out of its way several miles and lots of time to get onto main roads (and traffic) to take you to your destination rather than take a more sensible route that MyRoute app, Google maps or waze would take you on. I live on the outskirts of Belfast and did a comparison of routes of all five of my Garmin devices and Google maps to route from Florence Court House about 100 miles away from where I live to home and only the Zumo XT routed me through Enniskillen and Central Belfast. Even the Streetpilot 2610 produced a better route.
The Zumo XT (intermittently) produces repeated U turns in imported routes if you skip a Via point (Flagged waypoint). To ensure that this does not happen you have to make each route you import “Saved” to fix the issue. This can be achieved by saving current route in the unit editing the hex file for the route or using third party software that does it for you.
If you are doing a long out and back route with different but close together roads make sure that you have at least a Waypoint at the farthest end of the route. This will stop the unit shortcutting the route if you have to recalculate. In the old units they tried to get you to the next shaping point in the direction of travel...if another shaping point is closer to the XT it will just cut off a big lump of the route if you recalculate. For example, in this route if you recalculated just before where the 1 is on the map it would cut off the rest of the route and take you to Hillsborough if it was all shaping points and no way points which have to be gone through.

Anyhow enough of the history how did the XT get on with GPX 1.2. I have tried this previously and it had for me one big advantage, I could be lazy with my route planning and the XT would still follow the desired path. It also had a disadvantage that I had to set my recalculation as off or as prompted as any deviation from the route would mean that the points that shaped the route would be missed and it would take me to the next flagged waypoint or the end if the route was composed of shaping points.

I use this route a lot for testing it zig zags down lots of minor roads and across some more major ones hence the number of (shaping) waypoints. I think I may have used the route to test the expand function.
This is what it looked like as a GPX 1.2 on a Zumo XT. Track in yellow underneath.

And what it would have looked like as a GPX1.1 with all the shaping points.

Oddly the GPX 1.1 format is showing a shorter Journey time.

I used the GPX 1.2 format. The only avoidance was unpaved roads.

Setting up on the road. As you can see both are saying 84 miles and I’m about 2 miles from the start of the route.

Passing the start point.

After I missed the first turn off on the route.

As you can see the route running on the AA screen is showing 82 miles and a left turn further up the road. The XT wants me to U turn and has recalculated the route at 205miles!! If I had loaded GPX1.1 I expect it would have behaved similarly to the routing app re-directing to the nearest shaping point.

Inspecting the route at this point it had re-routed through the centre of Belfast and out west on the motorway then returning via the motorway through Saintfield and Downpatrick to the coffee stop at Ardglass then the rest of the GPX 1.2 route would nave been navigated as normal as long as you didn’t go off route and recalculate presumably.
I U turned as requested by the XT. Instead of following its directions I rejoined the Yellow Track line and the GPX 1.2 route on the XT then went down to 69 miles heading for the Flagged waypoint on the main roads while MRA rejoined the route and showed 79 miles. I thought I’d captured this but hadn’t
Anyhow I went off route again on a minor road as you might if it were blocked. Again 205 miles vs 74 with the reroute.

I U-Turned back toward the yellow track.

The correct route taken by MRA was the left turn. The GPX 1.2 file wanted to take me on a flight of fancy. Something I’ve always encountered with the Zumo XT and GPX 1.2. When I turned left the Zumo XT wanted to take me straight to the first waypoint via the fastest roads.

The conclusion for me is that a properly designed route downloaded as GPX 1.1 means that if you have to use auto recalculate you will get back to the planned route more easily than with GPX1.2. This was a bit of fun for me on roads I know. I wouldn’t have been so happy If I was on rural French or Spanish roads and had allowed the Zumo XT to recalculate with 5 or six riders relying on my navigation.
The other advantage of a carefully designed GPX1.1 route is of course that it is more easily shared with folks with a mix of navigation devices without the potential to create mayhem

It was interesting to revisit GPX 1.2

Steve Jarrell

Here's what I personally do....

I never turn auto-recalculation on. I'd much rather find my own way back to my route as typically when I create a route in MRA I want to follow it exactly, and if I do have to deviate from it I want to decide how to get back on it.

If I want the gps to automatically calculate my route I prefer just to use Waze or Google Maps. That's fine most of the time in my car, but on the R1300GS or Spyder I almost always want the gps to follow my predetermined route.

As I mentioned I do use 1.2 .gpx format almost exclusively as it follows my intended route as it's forced to follow the track which is what I want.
I don't use Basecamp, Explore, etc. etc. or any of the other Garmin apps with the XT*. I find them to be unnecessary and frustrating. And yes.... I have spent many hours learning their strengths, weaknesses and quirks. I'd rather have direct control over downloading my routes and tracks to the XTs and deleting the old files out of the gpx folder when they're no longer necessary. For me, this method is very straightforward, foolproof and easy for me to understand.
If I'm sharing a route with a variety of other riders who may or may not have Garmin units that can properly import 1.2 files I simply share the track file. Virtually all gps units can create a route from a track that will follow the intended path.

The bottom line is for me what I see on my computer screen when I'm creating a route in MRA is what I expect to see and follow on my Garmin XT3, and the easiest way for me to accomplish that is to save the route in 1.2 .gpx format, manually transfer it to my gps and turn off automatic recalculation.

I always double check the distance of my route in MRA with what my Garmin shows after import and if they don't match VERY closely after import I investigate to see why they don't by showing both the track and route in the Garmin, then fix the issue in MRA and reimport the route.

Mzokk

Earlier in the thread when I stated that recalculation should be switched off when navigating gpx 1.2 you suggested that that was inaccurate and that the XT3 would navigate back to the magenta line. That may be the case for the XT3 but not for the XT. So my advice to anyone using gpx1.2 and an XT would be to switch off recalculation whereas that would not be strictly necessary using gpx1.1

The easiest way to get wysiwyg with the MRA route planner is to use the app.

This has been good enough for me to use for navigation the past 18months. Luckily I have not had many of the issues discussed on these pages and only use the XT on the Honda for custom poi’s (the black blobs in one of the pictures above mark neolithic tombs and the white pennants WWII defence heritage) and being an old codger have proximity alerts set for public toilets. I also run the track of the route I’m riding on the XT and load the routes for use as a backup.

As stated above I still use Basecamp for track manipulation and POI’s. The XT can handle and display much more custom poi information than MyRoute app and can display it independently of routes.

So my current setup is

MyRoute app for route navigation. And OSMand+ for track navigation and Google maps for a-b navigation.

XT for backups track display and poi’s and Basecamp poi loader for tracks and poi handling

Qgis for generating poi’s and other mapping projects.

Steve Jarrell

Very good to know. Thanks for the followup.

Carl Lee

I've recently noticed that I can now export a GPX1.2 route from MRA to Tread on my iPhone and subsequently my XT2 (presumably XT3 too) without it being corrupted. I have my track running underneath so I can see that the Zumo does not try to recalculate a different route altogether between via points even when deviating from the route (auto-recalculate switched on). A test route I ran today seemed to prove it where once it would have gone haywire and either routed direct to the via point on a road or even a straight line.

Route deviations seemed to be dealt with in a logical manner, either a u-turn or directions back on to the route up ahead. I didn't encounter any road closures so not sure if they will be dealt with well in the same way 1.1 does (mostly!).

Maybe one of the recent Tread, Zumo or MRA updates has allowed this to happen. No shaping points visible but ultra quick calculations on both sets of software. I'm hoping I've got this right as it's what many have been looking for.

Probably some further testing to come but I'll be keen to see if anyone else has this good fortune.

Steve Jarrell

@Carl-Lee I'm not sure what's going on, but as I've said before, I personally take Tread and other intermediate apps out of the mix and get down to the basics that I can see and understand.... Directly upload the 1.2 .gpx file via USP to the Garmin's /.gpx folder, import it, then look at the results.

Using the 1.2 format, the Garmin (XT, XT2 or 3) should not be able to (will NOT in my testing) create a route that deviates from the route that you see in MRA as the Garmin route WILL be forced to follow the .gpx file's embeded track's "breadcrumb" to create the route and disregard the Garmin's own routing logic.

If you choose to use Tread, Drive, Basecamp, MRA or any other file transfer method other than a direct USB transfer to copy your .gpx file from your computer's hard drive to your Garmin device's /gpx folder, then you are choosing to accept the ambiguity of not knowing whether or not that the file was properly transferred to the device.

If you can't see that the .gpx file that's located on your local drive was successfully copied to the Garmin's /gpx folder YOU CANNOT know for certain that it has been transferred properly.

Before anyone slams me with "the xyz app has always worked perfectly for me" believe me..... I understand!

Even though you may not be having an issue with your particular configuration and apps (GREAT! keep doing what you're doing!), for anyone who is having issues this is where troubleshooting should begin. Eliminating variables one by one is the first step in troubleshooting a technical problem. Direct transfer of the .gpx file eliminates many of the variables. That's a fact!

Carl Lee

@steve-jarrell, I agree with all that you wrote and that is what I have previously found to be correct. I either exported a 1.2 file via USB to my SD card or used 1.1 via Tread. Both worked although if you stopped the 1.2 route and re-started it, Tread would probably corrupt it.

I'm aware of how to remove Tread from the mix but I obviously seem to like a problem to solve. As of recently, 1.2 is now playing nicely with Tread so getting a route into my XT2 is a doddle. I know the route is correct because I run the track in red underneath it. The two do not separate and re-routing back is catered for (if you should so wish).

All I'm trying to say is that for those who are either having trouble with Tread or who have binned it but would like to use it, try it again with 1.2. I like the ability to plan with MRA and loading this route when away from home. The SD card option is too fiddly - I don't much fancy dropping it as it has lots of music on it too.

Steve Jarrell

@Carl-Lee That's very good to know. Thanks for the update!

I understand the "need to solve the puzzle" syndrome very well. I think it's an affliction that some of us have to live with!

And I agree with you completely that showing the track and the route simultaneously on the Garmin is the absolute best way to know for certain that it's taking you the way that you wanted to go. I learned the hard way to do that (many times) before 1.2 when I had to force it to follow my desired route with a LOT of shaping points.

John S Parry

@Steve-Jarrell I finally got around to playing with 1.2, and I'm impressed. Here is a screenshot of one of the most troublesome routes I've recently created, and it passed my 1.2 test perfectly:

It's a single very rural road that partially crosses the southernmost Sierra Nevada. It's a challenging road to route because it requires precisely positioned shaping points (using 1.1) to Import into a Garmin. I probably have more overall shaping points than needed, but 2 WPs in particular (23&24), as they are exactly placed, are absolutely necessary. It's a unique jog on the road that messes up recalculation on my Zumo otherwise.

Initially, it took a lot of iterative back-and-forth between MRA and my Zumo to finally solve the puzzle. I literally spend hours playing with different shaping point scenarios before solving the mystery. Now with 1.2, I can delete WPs 23&24 and the route recalculates on the Zumo correctly. I'm finally going to able to achieve "what you see on MRA is what you get in the Zomo".

1.2 is definitely going to make life easier for trickier situations like this.

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GPX Versions 1.1 vs 1.2 for Garmin Visually Explained