GPX Versions 1.1 vs 1.2 for Garmin Visually Explained

[John S Parry]

@Marinus-van-Deudekom said:

This whole topic is about getting routes into Garmin devices. Garmin uses Here as road map. Its a known and multiple proved fact that routes created with OSM or TomTom cause problems on those Garmin devices.
Im certainly not stating that the Here map is perfect. Far from that BUT it's the map Garmin uses.
If you want to use OSM be my guest.
By the way my Garmin devices are all sold
Im a MRA RouteXpert so yes I'm promoting MRA. Is it perfect no but pretty damn near close and as far as I'm concerned the number 1 app to navigate with.

If "it's a known and multiple proved fact that routes created with OSM or TomTom cause problems on those Garmin devices", where is the documentation? Proven facts are usually outlined somewhere for public consumption. This is the second time you've made this assertion, but again provide no context to what "causes problems" means. We all want to learn, but simply throwing out assertions that fly in the face of what others have actually experienced is not helpful.

But I'll take a stab at what you're trying to communicate. If in Routeplanner you create a route using OSM or TomTom, and in that route you minimize the use of shaping points and instead allow OSM/TomTom to make route calculation decisions for you, problems may in fact occur on a Garmin. You're then allowing Garmin, which has different route calculation algorithms, to possibly choose different paths between Via Points. I'd argue that the problem is more with the route creator than with OSM/TomTom. If you're actually talking about something else, please bring some substance that would be helpful.

[John S Parry]

@steve-jarrell I want to take this opportunity to again thank you for what's essentially been a tutorial on the GPX 1.2 format. I feel like a kid at Christmas. I'll never go back to 1.1 format routes again.

With all the dismissive talk about using OSM as the base map, I created a quick route riding the bad HERE cartography road section I outlined earlier. The route I created was with OSM and saved in the 1.2 format.

I imported the route manually into my XT3 without issue. The link to the route is below:

https://www.myrouteapp.com/route/open/14129162

I proceed to ride the XT3 route for educational purposes. It ran without ever triggering the off-route recalculation dialog box, which it did running under 1.1 HERE. The XT3 clearly showed me riding the track of the real path alongside the HERE mapped road that was in the wrong location. It was fun to watch and spoke to the sophistication of the 1.2 format.

Thanks again!

[Steve Jarrell]

@John-S-Parry You're very welcome. Hopefully I have helped others here just a little just like many others have helped me!

We're all learning constantly (otherwise we wouldn't be here!) and the knowledge that we gain from our collective experience and viewpoints benefits all of us!

[Mzokk]

@John-S-Parry said:

@Marinus-van-Deudekom said:

This whole topic is about getting routes into Garmin devices. Garmin uses Here as road map. Its a known and multiple proved fact that routes created with OSM or TomTom cause problems on those Garmin devices.
Im certainly not stating that the Here map is perfect. Far from that BUT it's the map Garmin uses.
If you want to use OSM be my guest.
By the way my Garmin devices are all sold
Im a MRA RouteXpert so yes I'm promoting MRA. Is it perfect no but pretty damn near close and as far as I'm concerned the number 1 app to navigate with.

If "it's a known and multiple proved fact that routes created with OSM or TomTom cause problems on those Garmin devices", where is the documentation? Proven facts are usually outlined somewhere for public consumption. This is the second time you've made this assertion, but again provide no context to what "causes problems" means. We all want to learn, but simply throwing out assertions that fly in the face of what others have actually experienced is not helpful.

But I'll take a stab at what you're trying to communicate. If in Routeplanner you create a route using OSM or TomTom, and in that route you minimize the use of shaping points and instead allow OSM/TomTom to make route calculation decisions for you, problems may in fact occur on a Garmin. You're then allowing Garmin, which has different route calculation algorithms, to possibly choose different paths between Via Points. I'd argue that the problem is more with the route creator than with OSM/TomTom. If you're actually talking about something else, please bring some substance that would be helpful.

Interesting discussion so far. With regard to the point above I'd have to concur with @marinus-van-deudekom. If you use the OSM or Tom tom mapping on a Garmin Device using Here mapping you may get unexpected results. This is because the road lines are projected in slightly different ways depending on the map set.

.

This is not a good example, but you can see that the map road lines don't quite line up. This is a google maps underlay with Here (black), TomTom red, and OSM blue road lines. The divergence is not bad in this example but I have encountered bits of road where the divergence is 10-15M. This can cause a problem particularly if a waypoint is inadvertently placed on the opposite carriageway because of map differences, or occasionally the route might direct you down a track you don't want to be on as OSM and Here categorise what constitutes a "Road" slightly differently :D. or you might have the occasional turn up a sideroad that is unintended. These issues are not serious but could be irritating. Long story short you will get better results if you use the map set that matches the maps on your device.
When I used my Garmin devices for navigation I often used OSM maps to keep old discontinued units for which Garmin no longer produce mapping up to date, and to make maps for places like Canada and the US, for which I had no mapping.

A write up I did explaining this can be found here.

https://www.ukgser.com/community/threads/using-open-street-maps-on-old-and-new-garmin-devices.439311/

Finally I notices a post on FrankB's excellent trip planner tool. This is indeed good but its use is dependant on having access to a computer to turn the routes on a Zumo XT to saved routes. There is another way to do this on the device itself. I take no credit for this Oop North John on the Zumo website discovered this. Basically if you have an imported route and you want to make it into a saved route to avoid potential RUT issues do this.

1. Send the calculated route to the XT

   2. Open it up in the Trip Planner

   3. Select Go!

   4. Select the next via / way point, then Start

   5. Then go back into Trip Planner

   6. Select Saved trips

   7. Select My Active Route and Save it. Unfortunately the original name is lost, but c'est la vie

   8. Then select the trip you just saved in the Saved Trips area

Again interesting thread which hopefully we will all learn from. That said if MyRoute app POI track handling was more functional I'd have no use for my Garmin devices at all.

[John S Parry]

@mzokk Thanks for your comprehensive response. You clearly have a grasp of "in the weeds internals" that I don't possess. I'm more of a "test and observe" kind of route planner. I look for instances of repeated routing behavior (both success and failures) across different terrain scenarios. I have multiple IBA (Iron Butt Association) awards where routing precision and mapping accuracy couldn't be compromised. I also lead multi-day rides across technical terrain in the US with very experienced riders who will not tolerate following "bad" routing. I bring this up not to beat my chest, but to indicate my required standards for building routes.

With respect, your response is filled with a lot of "ifs, and buts". I'm not challenging what you presented as anything other than real possibilities. What I am saying is that in my years of creating hundreds of routes using OSM for export to Garmin devices (XT, XT3) I have never encountered any of the behaviors you outlined. I wish I had so that I could pick your brain for further understanding.

I'm glad that you brought up the Zumo XT Forum. It's probably the best resource for learning everything XT out there. The main characters in the forum are incredibly knowledgeable. "jfheath" in particular has been very helpful in my XT learning journey. But even there, I sometimes scratch my head with some of the XT behaviors discussed. I have personally never experienced the infamous RUT behavior. That's over a 5-years period of continuous XT/XT3 route planning. Ironically, if you read through the forum, a couple of the regulars have sheepishly admitted they haven't experienced the behavior either. Again, this isn't questioning that it can happen, but it's clearly not a global pervasive problem.

Going back to HERE, I agree that in a perfect world that you would use the same maps for development that are used in execution. So within MRA, why not just use HERE?

If you didn't see my discussion on HERE map inaccuracies, start with the route below:

https://www.myrouteapp.com/route/open/14129162

Open this OSM route up, and compare with HERE. You'll quickly see that the HERE cartography has the road deviating in a completely wrong location. I can't imagine a more serious vendor map sin than not getting a road location right. Beyond this specific HERE snafu, there are several other MRA HERE flaws that I find unacceptable:

1. Too much of a lag time in recognizing closed roads that are now open.
2. Showing roads open that have been closed sometimes for years.
3. Calculating random route off/on deviations where the Freeway/Interstate continues straight, sometimes for hours.
4. I can go on, but I'll spare you.....

Given all this, for me, it's a matter of picking your poison. I can use HERE for development and know I'll get randomly tripped up, probably at the most inopportune time. Or instead use OSM, which has proven through extensive actual use to be reliable.

Just my thoughts on the matter.......