MRA should indeed get back to basics.

[christopherjknight]

Re: MRA needs to get back to basics?

I couldn't agree more with the views expressed by Gary-France. I signed up as a VIRP member, funding the development for Myroute-app in 2015 as it emerged from TyreToTravel. Since then it has been road maps, promises and delays, flakey performance and ultimately disappointment. I am a gold member ( it was lifetime but somehow got shortened and now finishes at the end of next year). Now they are pushing MRA Next. Fat chance of me signing up for that while despite deleting, and reinstalling MRA Navigation on separate iPhones, I still get "Unable to calculate route" messages - with no explanation of the reason.

[Jack van Tilburg]

I mostly agree with you.
MRA has become a route planning tool with too many technical possibilities. At least for many users. Although I am happy with many of those features!
But it has become a bit like MS Word. Years ago, that had enough features for 75% of the users. Nowadays it has been developed so far that 75% of the features are not used and confuse most users.
It seems very likely that MRA mainly listens to the RouteExperts, who are also called the most important ambassadors apparently, when adding new functionality.
But I think a large group of users is not waiting for all those complicated options. (Again I'm happy with it)
I therefore also see a gloomy view with regard to MRA Navigation Next if the planner and the navigation tool are included in one app. I fear that the complexity will put off many (new) users.
It would seem to me a good plan to develop MRA in two versions. For example, a basic and an advanced version.

[Hans van de Ven MR.MRA]

@Jack-van-Tilburg and @christopherjknight

Hi Jack & Chris

MRA not only listens to the RouteXperts but to all members. We as RouteXperts make extensive use of all options in the planner, so yes, our vote certainly counts.
As for the versions, there is a basic version, a silver version and a gold version, all in 1 application. What else do you want?
Navigation Next is built on the platform of the new Mobile app, so immediately 1 website and 1 app and with the app you can navigate depending on the subscription with or without instructions.
So back to the beginning is... Look where they were in 2015 and where MRA is now.

@Chris, not being able to calculate your route can be for several reasons, so it's hard to say from a distance.

[Nick Carthew]

@christopherjknight said in MRA should indeed get back to basics.:

Re: MRA needs to get back to basics?

I couldn't agree more with the views expressed by Gary-France. I signed up as a VIRP member, funding the development for Myroute-app in 2015 as it emerged from TyreToTravel. Since then it has been road maps, promises and delays, flakey performance and ultimately disappointment. I am a gold member ( it was lifetime but somehow got shortened and now finishes at the end of next year). Now they are pushing MRA Next. Fat chance of me signing up for that while despite deleting, and reinstalling MRA Navigation on separate iPhones, I still get "Unable to calculate route" messages - with no explanation of the reason.

Hello @christopherjknight. I’m saddened by your disappointment with the progress of MRA. If you signed up for lifetime membership, then lifetime means just that, lifetime. If you create a ticket on the support page, then I’m sure that your account details can be looked at and amended.
With reference to the problems that you are experiencing with MRA Navigation, messages like those that you are receiving are generally associated with a problem in the planning. If you care to share one of the problem routes in a thread on this post (make sure that the privacy is set to public) I will see if I can find a solution.
The reason that the new MRA Navigation Next is being developed is to make it much more user friendly and so avoid the very problems that you are seeing. If you already have a Navigation subscription, you will automatically receive the update for MRA Navigation Next when it is released early next year.
I know that I t doesn’t help your situation, but I would just like to say that I use an iPhone and have traveled thousands of miles without receiving any such message.

[Nick Carthew]

@Jack-van-Tilburg said in MRA should indeed get back to basics.:

It seems very likely that MRA mainly listens to the RouteExperts, who are also called the most important ambassadors apparently, when adding new functionality.

Hi @Jack-van-Tilburg. I think that you are being a little unfair and your statement regarding mainly listening to RouteXperts is incorrect. Your input and suggestions are as equally valid as any other user or those of a RX. MRA shows an openness and transparency with full community involvement that no other route planning/navigation company does.
I’m a little confused because despite saying that MRA has too many new features you then say that you are happy with them. And as @Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master has already mentioned, there are choices to make from a completely free version of MRA to a more professional version giving the user complete freedom to choose what level of features would suit them.

[Tim Thompson]

@Jack-van-Tilburg said in MRA should indeed get back to basics.:

I mostly agree with you.
MRA has become a route planning tool with too many technical possibilities. At least for many users. Although I am happy with many of those features!
But it has become a bit like MS Word. Years ago, that had enough features for 75% of the users. Nowadays it has been developed so far that 75% of the features are not used and confuse most users.
It seems very likely that MRA mainly listens to the RouteExperts, who are also called the most important ambassadors apparently, when adding new functionality.
But I think a large group of users is not waiting for all those complicated options. (Again I'm happy with it)
I therefore also see a gloomy view with regard to MRA Navigation Next if the planner and the navigation tool are included in one app. I fear that the complexity will put off many (new) users.
It would seem to me a good plan to develop MRA in two versions. For example, a basic and an advanced version.

I consider MRA Routeplanner to be a decent and somewhat simple route planner. There are more complicated/capable options out there. MRA seems to be fairly easy to pick up and use from my perspective (minimal references to the documentation needed). It seems intuitive enough - particularly if one has familiarity in general with using route planners (they all have some commonality). I wouldn't want MRA to become more rudimentary. It seems that a solution must at least exceed a minimum threshold of capability.

[Con Hennekens]

@Jack-van-Tilburg said in MRA should indeed get back to basics.:

It would seem to me a good plan to develop MRA in two versions. For example, a basic and an advanced version.

Or a planner (aka MRA Mobile) and a navigator (currently know as Navigation). I see what you mean. Being bothered with too many Navigation options in Mobile could potentially distract users that don't have a Navigation subscription. But I am sure MRA understands that, and will hide all options concerning Navigation for people that don't have that subscription. Having Navigation Next as a separate app however would not bother me either.

[Drabslab]

@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master
@Nick-Carthew

Dear both,

You are both very involved in MRA development, its history and evolution. For you it's a passion, and you are seated first row to see all the very hard work of the development team, share the successes and disapointments, and are excited how your idea's become reality. I also have the highest respect for your dedication to helping users.

Even when you are not MRA staff (I think) you are at least "hard core professional fans" and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Within that context I fully understand that you are tempted to always defend MRA. It's only human to side whith those you love. Unfortunately, you are NOT always doing MRA a favour with this approach.

When Jack states that MRA starts having too many options for most users, he doesn't do that to stupidly crisicise, he does that because he has reasons to be concerned. Also when he points to his experience with MRA to question the future "next". The same applies to Christopher who picked up on this old thread from Gary France, and actually the same applies to myself.

When looking at user comments (and from relevant experience working on the IT side) you should always have the following mindset (I often failed in this myself):

THE USER IS ALWAYS RIGHT
EVEN WHEN THE USER IS WRONG, THE USER IS STILL ALWAYS RIGHT

When judging user comments you must bear in mind that this user is NOT aware of the inner circle knowledge that you have, and is therefore often unable to accurately pinpoint to the CAUSE of the problem, as the user can only describe the EFFECT that this unknown cause has. This does not make these effects less real and as developer you better take them into account or the user is going to vote with his/her feet.

For instance, Jack his comment "it has become a bit like MS Word. Years ago, that had enough features for 75% of the users. Nowadays it has been developed so far that 75% of the features are not used and confuse most users" doesn't necessarily mean that there are too many features, it perhaps means that the user interface is not good enough to hide complexities not relevant to novice users. A user interface that allows users to gradually discover features when their expertise in the tool grows. He definitively did not make his comment with the intention to be unfair.

Over time, MRA has lost significant users such as Gary France organising and guiding full time motorcycle travels (talking about a potential ambassador), or PAD-0 pointing continuously towards certain problems. At some point I was myself at the edge of leaving despite having a lifetime gold membership.

All for the same reason: we have too often the feeling that our input is dismissed. You may write 1000 times that "MRA not only listens to the RouteXperts but to all members." but we experience another reality, e.g. that a roadmap made on basis of user input was silently abandonned only a few months after it was published, or that a support ticket remains unanswered during a year. Just try to remain motivated to contribute under those conditions.

In another post I wrote "we should understand that MRA is working following the hobby club approach and development is guided by the spur of the moment interest". You may disagree but this may well be the origin of the "I signed up ... in 2015 ... Since then it has been road maps, promises and delays, flakey performance and ultimately disappointment.". My experience, too some extend, is exactly the same.

The solid basis of the tool (Tyre) and the brilliance of the developers has delivered a very good routeplanner, and I hope that NEXT will do the same to the navigator, but aside from that brilliance there seem to be aspects of MRA that that are a total mess. MRA seems a bit of a hobby club, a bit of a routeplanner, a bit of a navigator, a bit of a social platform, a bit of a quiz environment, perhaps in future after the iron curtain trail a bit of a travel agency ... Jack of all trades, master in none?

It is definitively true that MRA has progressed enormously since 2015. Maybe it is time to translate that growth in a more professional approach for some aspects of managing an internet business?

Again, I am only a user, I know very little, I am just describing my observations with constructive intentions, and without any intention to offend or hurt anyone.

And all this against the background of what is essentially a good product that I love so much that I want it to become even better...

[Jack van Tilburg]

@Drabslab said in MRA should indeed get back to basics.:
I am extremely pleased with your response.
I was trying to write an answer myself, but I couldn't put it into words better.
I was struggling a lot with my words to avoid going after Hans and Nick like a wasp again because I don't want that.
In any case, you have understood and expressed the intention of my answer correctly.

Shame about this one:

... Jack of all trades, master in none?

[Drabslab]

@Jack-van-Tilburg I am happy that my answer is received well (at least by you ).

It is indeed very difficult to point to shortcomings as it is soooo easy to unnecessarily and unintentionally push someone in a defensive position, and receiving a natural hostile reaction.

I may (hopefully) have struck the right balance this time, I may be less lucky next time.

[Nick Carthew]

@Drabslab said in MRA should indeed get back to basics.:

@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master
@Nick-Carthew

Dear both,

You are both very involved in MRA development, its history and evolution. For you it's a passion, and you are seated first row to see all the very hard work of the development team, share the successes and disapointments, and are excited how your idea's become reality. I also have the highest respect for your dedication to helping users.

Dear @Drabslab and @Jack-van-Tilburg. I will address you both as I think that Jack would have written a similar reply.
Thank you for your kind words, you are indeed correct, MRA is a passion of mine and I am sure that I can answer the same for Hans too. It is also clear to see that both of you are passionate about MRA which is why we see you so often in this forum. I think that it is true to say that we are ALL cut from the same cloth.

Even when you are not MRA staff (I think) you are at least "hard core professional fans" and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Within that context I fully understand that you are tempted to always defend MRA. It's only human to side whith those you love. Unfortunately, you are NOT always doing MRA a favour with this approach.

Again you are correct, we are not MRA staff and I like your term 'hardcore professionals' It is very difficult not defend something that you care passionately about but there have been many occasions where I have just sat back and ignored some of the harsh and unjust comments that have been written in this forum, mainly by those that have not taken the time to learn about the product or have not correctly planned a route. I realise that I am on the defensive again with this reply, but I feel that such a well written response by yourself deserves a reply.

When Jack states that MRA starts having too many options for most users, he doesn't do that to stupidly crisicise, he does that because he has reasons to be concerned. Also when he points to his experience with MRA to question the future "next". The same applies to Christopher who picked up on this old thread from Gary France, and actually the same applies to myself.

When looking at user comments (and from relevant experience working on the IT side) you should always have the following mindset (I often failed in this myself):

THE USER IS ALWAYS RIGHT
EVEN WHEN THE USER IS WRONG, THE USER IS STILL ALWAYS RIGHT

I think that despite all of the new features that have been introduced to MRA the fundamental workings are still the same as the day that it was launched. If a user from 2015 had not opened the route planner for 7 years, they would still be able to plan and export a route today with not much difficulty. The new features are there to be used or not used and as both Hans and myself have said, there are 3 levels to choose from. I half agree with your statement about the user always being right. As a mere carpenter myself with zero IT experience, I can only compare it to my own customer experience. And trust me, they weren't always right. "No madam, you cannot have a bathroom in the loft without strengthening the floor!" We can only work with the tools and materials that we are supplied with, so often we have to compromise and sometimes customers/users are not prepared to compromise.

When judging user comments you must bear in mind that this user is NOT aware of the inner circle knowledge that you have, and is therefore often unable to accurately pinpoint to the CAUSE of the problem, as the user can only describe the EFFECT that this unknown cause has. This does not make these effects less real and as developer you better take them into account or the user is going to vote with his/her feet.

For instance, Jack his comment "it has become a bit like MS Word. Years ago, that had enough features for 75% of the users. Nowadays it has been developed so far that 75% of the features are not used and confuse most users" doesn't necessarily mean that there are too many features, it perhaps means that the user interface is not good enough to hide complexities not relevant to novice users. A user interface that allows users to gradually discover features when their expertise in the tool grows. He definitively did not make his comment with the intention to be unfair.

I agree and maybe my use of the word unfair was indeed unfair in itself, so I appologise for that Jack.

Over time, MRA has lost significant users such as Gary France organising and guiding full time motorcycle travels (talking about a potential ambassador), or PAD-0 pointing continuously towards certain problems. At some point I was myself at the edge of leaving despite having a lifetime gold membership.

All for the same reason: we have too often the feeling that our input is dismissed. You may write 1000 times that "MRA not only listens to the RouteXperts but to all members." but we experience another reality, e.g. that a roadmap made on basis of user input was silently abandonned only a few months after it was published, or that a support ticket remains unanswered during a year. Just try to remain motivated to contribute under those conditions.

In another post I wrote "we should understand that MRA is working following the hobby club approach and development is guided by the spur of the moment interest". You may disagree but this may well be the origin of the "I signed up ... in 2015 ... Since then it has been road maps, promises and delays, flakey performance and ultimately disappointment.". My experience, too some extend, is exactly the same.

I am saddened to hear whenever people choose to leave MRA and I wish that I could do something more to prevent it. As far as I am aware, the roadmap is still being worked on albeit more slowly than initially expected, I'm guessing that the pandemic had a role to play in that. Unanswered tickets are unacceptable and I only hope that @timo-martosatiman-mra sees this and is able to reply.

The solid basis of the tool (Tyre) and the brilliance of the developers has delivered a very good routeplanner, and I hope that NEXT will do the same to the navigator, but aside from that brilliance there seem to be aspects of MRA that that are a total mess. MRA seems a bit of a hobby club, a bit of a routeplanner, a bit of a navigator, a bit of a social platform, a bit of a quiz environment, perhaps in future after the iron curtain trail a bit of a travel agency ... Jack of all trades, master in none?

I agree and I have voiced very similar sentiments to MRA HQ

It is definitively true that MRA has progressed enormously since 2015. Maybe it is time to translate that growth in a more professional approach for some aspects of managing an internet business?

Again, I am only a user, I know very little, I am just describing my observations with constructive intentions, and without any intention to offend or hurt anyone.

And all this against the background of what is essentially a good product that I love so much that I want it to become even better...

Thank you for the feedback it is very useful to know.

[Jack van Tilburg]

@Nick-Carthew
Hi Nick, thanks for your answer.
We can agree on one thing and that is that we want the best for the users of MRA.
You rightly assumed that you can take me with you in this answer to @Drabslab. I was also writing a comment myself, but because I'm usually quite bluntley, it's good that Drabslab got ahead of me.

By the way, apparently you can have a bathroom in the loft.
But you have to reinforce the floor.
The customer is always right because he/she is incompetent and needs some help sometimes.

[Hans van de Ven MR.MRA]

@Jack-van-Tilburg , @Drabslab and @Nick-Carthew

Thank you for your contribution, we certainly agree on one thing, we want the best for MRA and its users. We know that this does not always go smoothly, and MRA is not (yet) a professional software company as you know these companies. The roadmap is still being worked on, and as @Nick pointed out at a slower pace than anyone would like.
And yes, behind the scenes we also give salty feedback to the MRA team and make our concerns known, but this is always handled well.
I got to know MRA in 2014 and as my friends and acquaintances say, addicted to MRA ever since.
So we're going to continue in good spirits to make Navigation Next a success and then get back on the roadmap.

[MyRoute-app community]

Discussions like these are read by me. Sadly I don't have the luxury of responding to every topic, but know that I'm generally aware of sentiments in the community.

As this thread is already at it's conclusion I'd like to add a final note about how we deal with sentiments. Especially as many here will be very familiar with some of the usecases.

Point in case of Gary being an exemplar of criticism to our platform. While that might have originally been the case, I believe that all of his views were taken very seriously and he ended up being pretty satisfied with the addition of the 'pause' functionality and some other features added in the big waypoint update. If anything, Gary's a good example of how we listen to people.

I wanted to fact check this and link some of his topics but the stupid UI user-search functionality remains broken. (we're fixing it, but I get to nag about these things too sometimes )

A second person who was throwing up a pretty big stink in the community with MAJOR complains about our navigation app and left our platform could also be a good example of how we're doing things wrong. That said, we reached out and have (with his amazing help) gathered key insights that continue to influence UX and roadmap decisions about MRA Navigation Next to this day. Not to say that it's neccecary to start fights to get your point across. The opposite is true. But more to say that even relatively hostile users are heard and taken seriously.

We also got a load of flak for outsourcing our app development. I'm going to repeat that we've now in-housed that capacity again.

[Hans van de Ven MR.MRA]

@Timo-Martosatiman-MRA
Clear explanation@Timo, I'll close the topic.