Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior

[John S Parry]

I'm just starting to play with the phone navigation, so maybe it's a setting I have wrong, but....

I created a test route that has a shaping point created after each turn. My expectation was that I would get an audio notification approaching each turn, but nothing is announced. If intentionally go off route, I'll start to get navigation prompts to get back, but again, nothing while on-route.

If a create a quick "A to B" route, turn prompts are announced. In this scenario, there are no shaping waypoints in-between. I'm stumped. Any help would be appreciated.

[Stefan Hummelink]

@John-S-Parry said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

I created a test route that has a shaping point created after each turn.

This is probably the cause.

From what I recall the algorithm sees "waypoints" higher in priority than the actual turn instructions. Try moving the waypoint at a significant distance before or after the turn and see if that helps. I try to keep them at least 100 to 150m after the turn.

[John S Parry]

@Stefan-Hummelink Thanks. I'll give that a try.

[Stefan Hummelink]

@John-S-Parry will you be so kind to provide us with feedback whether it solved your issue.

[John S Parry]

@Stefan-Hummelink Thanks -- that did it! I moved the shaping waypoints further out, and that mostly did the trick. I say "mostly" because there was one turn that didn't get announced. Because there were 2 quick turns close together, I couldn't spread the waypoints out enough for this situation. I had a feeling it would happen, and the behavior was confirmed.

Now that I understand, I can live with it. Still, there isn't a waypoint placement restriction in Garmin devices, and there is another phone app I use (inRoute) that doesn't seem to have this glitch either. Anyway, thanks again.

[RetiredWingMan]

@John-S-Parry that's because those apps / devices don't announce waypoints so there is no conflict.

[Stefan Hummelink]

@John-S-Parry said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

Because there were 2 quick turns close together, I couldn't spread the waypoints out enough for this situation. I had a feeling it would happen, and the behavior was confirmed.

Yep, unfortunately it cannot be prevented at all times. Knowing it happens is already very useful haha. I just did an empirical test and found that the crucial distance is about 150m. I tried putting wp's at several distances and found that my turn was not announced when the wp was at 140m+/-5m from the turn, and it actually got announced when the wp was 150m+/-5m from the turn. The behaviour was consistent for about 5 to 10 times I tried it on the bicycle haha.

I myself will definitely try to adhere to the >=150m whenever possible.

[John S Parry]

@RetiredWingMan I'm not sure what you mean. Both Garmin and inRoute announce via points, and don't announce shaping points. Just like MRA.

The difference is that Garmin and inRoute don't care where you place a shaping point. They'll always announce a turn, regardless. At least that's my experience with the other programs.

[Con Hennekens]

@John-S-Parry said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

Just like MRA

Not completely correct, MRA does announce shaping points too (if enabled).
I hope the devs will not hate me if I say this is a little bug but I think it is and it will be corrected at some point.

[John S Parry]

@Con-Hennekens Yes, you are correct that MRA can announce shaping points, but Garmin/MRA never do. I was surprised to see it as an option. Why anyone would want a shaping point announced is perplexing. It seems counter intuitive, but I guess choice is good.

I do agree that MRA shaping point placement requirements for receiving turn notifications is a bug. There shouldn't be a connection. It's not a deal breaker for me, but turn notifications are important. I hope they know and will correct it at some point.

[Con Hennekens]

@John-S-Parry said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

Why anyone would want a shaping point announced is perplexing.

Why is that exactly? I think it is not more than logical if VIA points can be announced why not shaping points? The function of VIA points is not to have them announced, but to prevent them from being auto-skipped. Nothing more nothing less.

@John-S-Parry said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

Yes, you are correct that MRA can announce shaping points, but Garmin/MRA never do.

Yes MRA does! You either need to put a name without numbers, or put something in the notes field.

[John S Parry]

@Con-Hennekens Sorry, I made a typo. I meant to say "Garmin/inRoute" never do.

As far as shaping points, they exist to force a route on a certain path. That can mean forcing a turn or keeping you on a straight path. Sometimes I have to place one or more shaping points on a straight road to keep the route calculation algorithm from re-routing me. Receiving notifications would be distracting and possibly confusing.

On the other hand, Via point notifications are for planned stopping places. I want to be notified for any upcoming hard stops. Garmin has been doing this forever -- they get the distinction. If you have a practical reason for wanting shaping points announced, I'd like to hear.

[Stefan Hummelink]

@John-S-Parry said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

f you have a practical reason for wanting shaping points announced, I'd like to hear.

Well, I use shaping points with notes(purposely written with the intend to be announced) to point out possible road hazards, info regarding upcoming waypoints/situations, possible roadworks etc etc etc. I do not want them to be via points, since these must be able to be automatically skipped. Many reasons to have shaping points announced !

See my example below to announce the upcoming awesome hairpins

[Con Hennekens]

@John-S-Parry said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

Receiving notifications would be distracting and possibly confusing.

Announcing shaping points ONLY happens when you want that (by changing name or adding notes). So they don't interfere with your route, nor do they lead to confusion. It's in how you use them. I often place a shaping point at interesting locations, indicating the name of a lake, museum, mountain pass or "if you want coffee, turn left, else follow the route". That does not mean I don't want to auto-skip them in case of a deviation. It's (almost) perfect the way it currently is...

[Stefan Hummelink]

@Con-Hennekens said in Strange Turn-By-Turn Behavior:

Announcing shaping points ONLY happens when you want that

Just to add to this one: in order for the shaping point to be announced even if you've purposely changed the note or the name of the waypoint, one shall have the announcement of waypoints set to "All" in the settings. Otherwise shaping points will never be announced, even when one deliberately modified the waypoint to accommodate that.

[John S Parry]

@Stefan-Hummelink Interesting take. I had never considered an announcing shaping point to be used in this way. For dynamic up-to-date road conditions (hazzards, accidents, full closures, partial clousres etc.), I always check our local road maintenance map before starting out on a route:

It's real-time, which enhances navigation value. I keep a mental note of areas with potential issues. Your methodology makes sense, but it's not a feature I'd personally use. Still, I get it. Thanks for providing an example.

[John S Parry]

@Con-Hennekens Thanks for your explanation. I see how the feature can be useful. I'm curious how this would be captured in a GPX and presented in a Garmin Zumo XT. I suspect it would come across as a normal shaping point. I'll try it and see....

I don't want to come across as being overly critical of MRA. Overall, I really like the web interface for creating routes, and the phone app for navigation is growing on me.

I come from the Basecamp/Garmin world, and that's my frame of reference for looking at alternatives. Living in a hot summer climate, I can't use a phone for navigation all year round. For longer trips in 100+ degree temps hours at a time, I need a standalone GPS designed for the abuse of outside extremes. So, I need to understand completely the differences between the 2 platforms. I appreciate all the input.

[Con Hennekens]

@John-S-Parry, no sweat. Me too learned that lots of people do not share my view, due to my view being limited to my own use case and methods. Nowadays I often ask explicitly to other people's methods, and discover that a lot of suggestions are actually very worthwhile if you look from their perspective. One never stops learning