Skipping waypoint button.
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@Corjan-Meijerink Thanks for making that clear. That's a real shame, as for me there are just too many downsides to navigation using waypoints. So sadly, I won't be using MRA Navigation Next until navigation using tracks is possible, which I realize may be never (or at least certainly not anytime soon).
@Herko-ter-Horst, I think MRA planner offers more than enough features to ensure equal routes among different platforms. Let's not forget many users do NOT want to leave routepoints for tracks at all. As always, having the option would be nice indeed.
I think Navigation (and Next too) should mainly be seen as a means of navigating routes that are already in the ecosystem and approved (at least by the one who made them). Having the possibility of exporting tracks to devices outside the ecosystem is great, but does not add a lot for people making full use of the ecosystem (read: plan AND drive through the MRA service).
I am just an enthusiastic MRA user, and hope you will be one too!
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebar to the saddle.
Streetpilot 2610/Zumo 660/Zumo 395/ CAT S52 + MRA app -
@Herko-ter-Horst, I think MRA planner offers more than enough features to ensure equal routes among different platforms. Let's not forget many users do NOT want to leave routepoints for tracks at all. As always, having the option would be nice indeed.
I think Navigation (and Next too) should mainly be seen as a means of navigating routes that are already in the ecosystem and approved (at least by the one who made them). Having the possibility of exporting tracks to devices outside the ecosystem is great, but does not add a lot for people making full use of the ecosystem (read: plan AND drive through the MRA service).
@Con-Hennekens As I've said before, I'm not suggesting leaving waypoints out altogether, obviously waypoints are important to indicate stops, points of interest and other things and they should be visible/audible/available during navigation. However, actually navigating based on them is a pretty sub-par experience (that people somehow have gotten used to), for a couple of reasons that keep coming up in questions on these forums as well, both on the planning side as well as on the driving/riding side:
- It requires the system/app doing the navigation to recreate/recalculate the route, that was already planned/calculated to perfection (using the maps and settings from the planner), from potentially different (maps and settings) and incomplete data (just the waypoints). Yes, sure you can keep adding waypoints to force the issue till the cows come home, but as a planner, I shouldn't have to, that's why I use an automated system to help with planning. I.e. it adds an unnecessary burden on the planner, which is multiplied by the number of systems the planner wants to support (e.g. MRA Nav, Garmin, device X, app Y, system Z). If I need to add enough waypoints to force all of them to behave the way I want, only to have it all fall to pieces anyway because the user selected "shortest" instead of "fastest" routing, or "avoid highways", on their device, that's not a good system, in my opinion.
- It requires the navigator (system/user) to skip an unknown number of waypoints when starting anywhere but at the originally planned start, or when one or more waypoints become unreachable due to changed/changing circumstances while navigating. I.e. it adds an unnecessary burden on the navigator. I feel driving/riding should be fun and navigation should be an aid to that, I don't want to be distracted or frustrated by a system that requires me to interact with it over such matters.
I get that point 1 is less of an issue (but not 'no issue') when the whole world uses the full MRA ecosystem (because you 'only' have to optimise for a single nav app), but in my experience, that's not the case, and as I don't believe in fairy tales, I'm not operating under the assumption that that will happen anytime soon either. But even assuming this were the case, the idea of manually having to skip an unknown number of waypoints during a trip is a hard disqualifier for me.
I would have loved for MRA Navigation Next to be an improvement over my current solution in terms of ease-of-use and integration with MRA Routeplanner, but it looks like it's not going to be for the foreseeable future. Too bad.
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@Herko-ter-Horst, I think MRA planner offers more than enough features to ensure equal routes among different platforms. Let's not forget many users do NOT want to leave routepoints for tracks at all. As always, having the option would be nice indeed.
I think Navigation (and Next too) should mainly be seen as a means of navigating routes that are already in the ecosystem and approved (at least by the one who made them). Having the possibility of exporting tracks to devices outside the ecosystem is great, but does not add a lot for people making full use of the ecosystem (read: plan AND drive through the MRA service).
@Con-Hennekens said in Skipping waypoint button.:
I think Navigation (and Next too) should mainly be seen as a means of navigating routes that are already in the ecosystem and approved (at least by the one who made them). Having the possibility of exporting tracks to devices outside the ecosystem is great, but does not add a lot for people making full use of the ecosystem (read: plan AND drive through the MRA service).
Having the ability to navigate using tracks would also improve the experience for people that plan their routes outside the ecosystem as well. Planning and importing both routes and tracks into MRA would likely become immensly more handy - for the reasons @Herko-ter-Horst has suggested and more - if one could simply navigate the track with MRA Navigation or Next.
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@Con-Hennekens As I've said before, I'm not suggesting leaving waypoints out altogether, obviously waypoints are important to indicate stops, points of interest and other things and they should be visible/audible/available during navigation. However, actually navigating based on them is a pretty sub-par experience (that people somehow have gotten used to), for a couple of reasons that keep coming up in questions on these forums as well, both on the planning side as well as on the driving/riding side:
- It requires the system/app doing the navigation to recreate/recalculate the route, that was already planned/calculated to perfection (using the maps and settings from the planner), from potentially different (maps and settings) and incomplete data (just the waypoints). Yes, sure you can keep adding waypoints to force the issue till the cows come home, but as a planner, I shouldn't have to, that's why I use an automated system to help with planning. I.e. it adds an unnecessary burden on the planner, which is multiplied by the number of systems the planner wants to support (e.g. MRA Nav, Garmin, device X, app Y, system Z). If I need to add enough waypoints to force all of them to behave the way I want, only to have it all fall to pieces anyway because the user selected "shortest" instead of "fastest" routing, or "avoid highways", on their device, that's not a good system, in my opinion.
- It requires the navigator (system/user) to skip an unknown number of waypoints when starting anywhere but at the originally planned start, or when one or more waypoints become unreachable due to changed/changing circumstances while navigating. I.e. it adds an unnecessary burden on the navigator. I feel driving/riding should be fun and navigation should be an aid to that, I don't want to be distracted or frustrated by a system that requires me to interact with it over such matters.
I get that point 1 is less of an issue (but not 'no issue') when the whole world uses the full MRA ecosystem (because you 'only' have to optimise for a single nav app), but in my experience, that's not the case, and as I don't believe in fairy tales, I'm not operating under the assumption that that will happen anytime soon either. But even assuming this were the case, the idea of manually having to skip an unknown number of waypoints during a trip is a hard disqualifier for me.
I would have loved for MRA Navigation Next to be an improvement over my current solution in terms of ease-of-use and integration with MRA Routeplanner, but it looks like it's not going to be for the foreseeable future. Too bad.
@Herko-ter-Horst said in Skipping waypoint button.:
I would have loved for MRA Navigation Next to be an improvement over my current solution in terms of ease-of-use and integration with MRA Routeplanner, but it looks like it's not going to be for the foreseeable future. Too bad.
I think ease of use is not only dependent on having turn-by-turn track navigation. There are benefits in track navigation, there are also disadvantages, we have been discussing this before. Most disadvantages play a little role for those using the complete MRA ecosystem. All those using the dedicates satnavs already have the possibility to ride tracks. For you track-navigation seems to be a "must-have" for me it is absolutely not. But I agree with you that the combination of the two can have it's merits.
@Tim-Thompson said in Skipping waypoint button.:
Having the ability to navigate using tracks would also improve the experience for people that plan their routes outside the ecosystem as well.
I really think that is not explicitly the target for MRA. I think Navigation is targeted at planner users and not at users of other planning tools, but:
@Tim-Thompson said in Skipping waypoint button.:
Planning and importing both routes and tracks into MRA would likely become immensly more handy
I think it is already very handy since you can import tracks into planner. It is about the same thing as exporting a track to a Garmin and import it to ride as a trip. And I am confident the integration of Next into Mobile will make that even simpler.
I am just an enthusiastic MRA user, and hope you will be one too!
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebar to the saddle.
Streetpilot 2610/Zumo 660/Zumo 395/ CAT S52 + MRA app -
@Herko-ter-Horst said in Skipping waypoint button.:
I would have loved for MRA Navigation Next to be an improvement over my current solution in terms of ease-of-use and integration with MRA Routeplanner, but it looks like it's not going to be for the foreseeable future. Too bad.
I think ease of use is not only dependent on having turn-by-turn track navigation. There are benefits in track navigation, there are also disadvantages, we have been discussing this before. Most disadvantages play a little role for those using the complete MRA ecosystem. All those using the dedicates satnavs already have the possibility to ride tracks. For you track-navigation seems to be a "must-have" for me it is absolutely not. But I agree with you that the combination of the two can have it's merits.
@Tim-Thompson said in Skipping waypoint button.:
Having the ability to navigate using tracks would also improve the experience for people that plan their routes outside the ecosystem as well.
I really think that is not explicitly the target for MRA. I think Navigation is targeted at planner users and not at users of other planning tools, but:
@Tim-Thompson said in Skipping waypoint button.:
Planning and importing both routes and tracks into MRA would likely become immensly more handy
I think it is already very handy since you can import tracks into planner. It is about the same thing as exporting a track to a Garmin and import it to ride as a trip. And I am confident the integration of Next into Mobile will make that even simpler.
Personally on my Garmin XT I never bother to make the Track Visible as I put at least 1 shaping point on every road I plan to travel on, no matter how long the route is.
I never add Via Points to any of my routes as I prefer to ride alone.
I stop whenever I need, to stretch the legs, eat, drink or just take in the scenery etc.
If "she who must be obeyed" is on the bike with me then I will use MRA Navigation as well as the XT, just using Shaping Points still, but coloured red for stops on MRA Navigation.
Personally, I prefer waypoint based navigation rather than tracks -
Personally on my Garmin XT I never bother to make the Track Visible as I put at least 1 shaping point on every road I plan to travel on, no matter how long the route is.
I never add Via Points to any of my routes as I prefer to ride alone.
I stop whenever I need, to stretch the legs, eat, drink or just take in the scenery etc.
If "she who must be obeyed" is on the bike with me then I will use MRA Navigation as well as the XT, just using Shaping Points still, but coloured red for stops on MRA Navigation.
Personally, I prefer waypoint based navigation rather than tracksThis post is deleted! -
Personally on my Garmin XT I never bother to make the Track Visible as I put at least 1 shaping point on every road I plan to travel on, no matter how long the route is.
I never add Via Points to any of my routes as I prefer to ride alone.
I stop whenever I need, to stretch the legs, eat, drink or just take in the scenery etc.
If "she who must be obeyed" is on the bike with me then I will use MRA Navigation as well as the XT, just using Shaping Points still, but coloured red for stops on MRA Navigation.
Personally, I prefer waypoint based navigation rather than tracksHi @Steve-Lynch It is a personal choice, if you are going to drive with a group, it is useful to use via points where you want to stop for coffee / lunch.
If you are always going to drive alone, you don't really need it and you stop where you want to stop.and a track is the most reliable to share
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@Herko-ter-Horst said in Skipping waypoint button.:
I would have loved for MRA Navigation Next to be an improvement over my current solution in terms of ease-of-use and integration with MRA Routeplanner, but it looks like it's not going to be for the foreseeable future. Too bad.
I think ease of use is not only dependent on having turn-by-turn track navigation. There are benefits in track navigation, there are also disadvantages, we have been discussing this before. Most disadvantages play a little role for those using the complete MRA ecosystem. All those using the dedicates satnavs already have the possibility to ride tracks. For you track-navigation seems to be a "must-have" for me it is absolutely not. But I agree with you that the combination of the two can have it's merits.
@Tim-Thompson said in Skipping waypoint button.:
Having the ability to navigate using tracks would also improve the experience for people that plan their routes outside the ecosystem as well.
I really think that is not explicitly the target for MRA. I think Navigation is targeted at planner users and not at users of other planning tools, but:
@Tim-Thompson said in Skipping waypoint button.:
Planning and importing both routes and tracks into MRA would likely become immensly more handy
I think it is already very handy since you can import tracks into planner. It is about the same thing as exporting a track to a Garmin and import it to ride as a trip. And I am confident the integration of Next into Mobile will make that even simpler.
@Con-Hennekens said in Skipping waypoint button.:
@Herko-ter-Horst said in Skipping waypoint button.:
I would have loved for MRA Navigation Next to be an improvement over my current solution in terms of ease-of-use and integration with MRA Routeplanner, but it looks like it's not going to be for the foreseeable future. Too bad.
I think ease of use is not only dependent on having turn-by-turn track navigation. There are benefits in track navigation, there are also disadvantages, we have been discussing this before. Most disadvantages play a little role for those using the complete MRA ecosystem. All those using the dedicates satnavs already have the possibility to ride tracks. For you track-navigation seems to be a "must-have" for me it is absolutely not. But I agree with you that the combination of the two can have it's merits.
Like I said, I get that my issue number 1 is less problematic if you are only using MRA. However "putting a shaping point on every road I plan to travel on", as Steve mentions, just to prevent the navigation app from messing up my route, is not a good use of my time. And having to skip waypoints while driving/riding isn't either and also isn't magically 'solved' by using only MRA.
I see the first issue (recalculating the route from waypoints at navigation time) as an unsolvable issue of the 'waypoints' approach, that is only mitigated by having to 'optimise' for a single app if you use only MRA (which I and the people I often drive with don't). I could see the second issue (skipping waypoints) as potentially solvable by a (much) smarter auto-skip algorithm.
As I've mentioned before as well, the main drawback of navigating using a track is the fact that current apps/devices (that I know of) disregard waypoints altogether in this mode. This is where I hoped MRA Navigation Next would improve: by showing/announcing waypoints while using the track to navigate, I figured you'd get the best of both worlds: no need for extra work during planning (if the route looks good during planning, it will be the same during navigation, no need to add more waypoints than strictly needed), no more skipping waypoints (they are not used for navigation, so there's no need to skip anything), but still have the visual (and/or aural) benefit of having waypoints for stops, viewpoints, etc.
My current solution does allow me to add points of interest manually, which are then displayed on the map while navigating, so it's almost there, but adding the POIs is a manual, additional step, which isn't very convenient.
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Personally on my Garmin XT I never bother to make the Track Visible as I put at least 1 shaping point on every road I plan to travel on, no matter how long the route is.
I never add Via Points to any of my routes as I prefer to ride alone.
I stop whenever I need, to stretch the legs, eat, drink or just take in the scenery etc.
If "she who must be obeyed" is on the bike with me then I will use MRA Navigation as well as the XT, just using Shaping Points still, but coloured red for stops on MRA Navigation.
Personally, I prefer waypoint based navigation rather than tracks@Steve-Lynch said in Skipping waypoint button.:
... "she who must be obeyed"
Mine has her own bike.I think your and mine methods are quite similar. Also I am not too frantic about taking the first or the second road left or right. MRA Navigation almost immediately shows the next best route to the next shaping point. Most of the time I do not bother to turn around anymore, everything fixes itself automatically.
@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master has a point that sharing routes is most reliable using the track. That's also why it is invented in the first place. Cross-platform compatibility.
And @Herko-ter-Horst has a point too, that waypoints being shown on a track-route would be a nice addition.
In the meantime I really appreciate how it works now too. I think for people within the ecosystem the need is much less. But loading a GPX directly into Navigation is more handy than uploading it in the planner and press "use as route".
I am just an enthusiastic MRA user, and hope you will be one too!
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebar to the saddle.
Streetpilot 2610/Zumo 660/Zumo 395/ CAT S52 + MRA app -
@Steve-Lynch said in Skipping waypoint button.:
... "she who must be obeyed"
Mine has her own bike.I think your and mine methods are quite similar. Also I am not too frantic about taking the first or the second road left or right. MRA Navigation almost immediately shows the next best route to the next shaping point. Most of the time I do not bother to turn around anymore, everything fixes itself automatically.
@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master has a point that sharing routes is most reliable using the track. That's also why it is invented in the first place. Cross-platform compatibility.
And @Herko-ter-Horst has a point too, that waypoints being shown on a track-route would be a nice addition.
In the meantime I really appreciate how it works now too. I think for people within the ecosystem the need is much less. But loading a GPX directly into Navigation is more handy than uploading it in the planner and press "use as route".
I used to do group rides but in my experience the inevitable happens and some Rossi wananbe on an R6 turns it into a race.
My method of placing a Shaping Point on every road I plan to travel on is a bit over the top, but I actually find it quite therapeutic planning routes in MRA.
Particularly as I generally use the Tom Tom Maps for their curvy algorithm.
My device however, is a Garmin XT, so I overlay the Tom Tom Track with waypoints then switch to Here and correct the slight differences in the maps.
I am also aware that the Track is the best option for sharing but I prefer to travel alone or with "she who must be obeyed".My preferred road types are those Country Lanes with the moss/grass in the middle and no pavements.
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@Steve-Lynch said in Skipping waypoint button.:
... "she who must be obeyed"
Mine has her own bike.I think your and mine methods are quite similar. Also I am not too frantic about taking the first or the second road left or right. MRA Navigation almost immediately shows the next best route to the next shaping point. Most of the time I do not bother to turn around anymore, everything fixes itself automatically.
@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master has a point that sharing routes is most reliable using the track. That's also why it is invented in the first place. Cross-platform compatibility.
And @Herko-ter-Horst has a point too, that waypoints being shown on a track-route would be a nice addition.
In the meantime I really appreciate how it works now too. I think for people within the ecosystem the need is much less. But loading a GPX directly into Navigation is more handy than uploading it in the planner and press "use as route".
@Con-Hennekens said in Skipping waypoint button.:
And @Herko-ter-Horst has a point too, that waypoints being shown on a track-route would be a nice addition.
If you use the gpx 1.2, you basically have a track with viapoints
gpx 1.2 on my XT with only the viapoints
Purple - route
Black = Track
Recalculation must be OFF
Garmin Zumo XT2/XT/BMW Connected Ride Navigator/MyRouteapp (The App)
Een dag niet gelachen is een dag niet geleefd / Een route is net zo goed als deze uitgezet is. -
@Con-Hennekens said in Skipping waypoint button.:
And @Herko-ter-Horst has a point too, that waypoints being shown on a track-route would be a nice addition.
If you use the gpx 1.2, you basically have a track with viapoints
gpx 1.2 on my XT with only the viapoints
Purple - route
Black = Track
Recalculation must be OFF@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master Are you suggesting MRA Navigation Next should be replaced by a Garmin Zumo XT? Surely not...
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@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master Are you suggesting MRA Navigation Next should be replaced by a Garmin Zumo XT? Surely not...
@Herko-ter-Horst
No, definitely not. I just gave the example of using the gpx 1.2 icm with a Zumo XT, where you basically have a track with waypoints.Garmin Zumo XT2/XT/BMW Connected Ride Navigator/MyRouteapp (The App)
Een dag niet gelachen is een dag niet geleefd / Een route is net zo goed als deze uitgezet is. -
@Herko-ter-Horst
No, definitely not. I just gave the example of using the gpx 1.2 icm with a Zumo XT, where you basically have a track with waypoints.@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master I'm not sure of the relevance of this to the discussion at hand. The track is not used for navigation, just for display purposes. If you miss one or more waypoints, you'll still need to (manually?) skip them, right? And also: it has nothing to do with MRA Navigation (Next).
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@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master I'm not sure of the relevance of this to the discussion at hand. The track is not used for navigation, just for display purposes. If you miss one or more waypoints, you'll still need to (manually?) skip them, right? And also: it has nothing to do with MRA Navigation (Next).
@Herko-ter-Horst said in Skipping waypoint button.:
@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master I'm not sure of the relevance of this to the discussion at hand. The track is not used for navigation, just for display purposes. If you miss one or more waypoints, you'll still need to (manually?) skip them, right? And also: it has nothing to do with MRA Navigation (Next).
I largely agree that this discussion is not really relevant for NEXT, although at the same time it is very relevant
What I mean is that as a user, I want NEXT to display a coherent, consistent and correct (whatever correct may be) behaviour when guiding me over a route.
And I can think of many user oriented "features" that this behaviour should include:
- warn me when I approach a speed trap
- indicate road blockages and, upon my request, change the route around those
- play a prerecorded vocal message when I am close to a specific POI
- and so on
To my knowledge none of these can be done only on basis of a track, or a route compatible with Garmin or TomTom.
and as a user (forget for a minute that I am a computer addict) I don't care as long as NEXT delivers on all this.
It is up to MRA to decide the technical solutions for all this and If they are able to provide such technical solutions then the Garmin-TomTom-track-route discussion will be over because the MRA eco system will provide a much better service, that can't be moved to other devices.
This, of course, only if Corjan starts typing faster
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@Herko-ter-Horst said in Skipping waypoint button.:
@Hans-van-de-Ven-MRA-Master I'm not sure of the relevance of this to the discussion at hand. The track is not used for navigation, just for display purposes. If you miss one or more waypoints, you'll still need to (manually?) skip them, right? And also: it has nothing to do with MRA Navigation (Next).
I largely agree that this discussion is not really relevant for NEXT, although at the same time it is very relevant
What I mean is that as a user, I want NEXT to display a coherent, consistent and correct (whatever correct may be) behaviour when guiding me over a route.
And I can think of many user oriented "features" that this behaviour should include:
- warn me when I approach a speed trap
- indicate road blockages and, upon my request, change the route around those
- play a prerecorded vocal message when I am close to a specific POI
- and so on
To my knowledge none of these can be done only on basis of a track, or a route compatible with Garmin or TomTom.
and as a user (forget for a minute that I am a computer addict) I don't care as long as NEXT delivers on all this.
It is up to MRA to decide the technical solutions for all this and If they are able to provide such technical solutions then the Garmin-TomTom-track-route discussion will be over because the MRA eco system will provide a much better service, that can't be moved to other devices.
This, of course, only if Corjan starts typing faster
@Drabslab said in Skipping waypoint button.:
"then the Garmin-TomTom-track-route discussion will be over because the MRA eco system will provide a much better service, that can't be moved to other devices"
Spot on
Oh and stop teasing @Corjan-Meijerink or we'll send a fleet of Triumph Tigers to run you off the road -
@Drabslab said in Skipping waypoint button.:
"then the Garmin-TomTom-track-route discussion will be over because the MRA eco system will provide a much better service, that can't be moved to other devices"
Spot on
Oh and stop teasing @Corjan-Meijerink or we'll send a fleet of Triumph Tigers to run you off the road @Steve-Lynch said in Skipping waypoint button.:
or we'll send a fleet of Triumph Tigers to run you off the road
Be careful, Steve, be VERY careful:
https://www.myrouteapp.com/blog/open/1168
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@Steve-Lynch @Drabslab That fleet of Tigers would be fun! I can handle some teasing
Would like to share with you that I actually drove a test route with Navigation Next!
The UI is still a very early version and I’m not even sure if it will be shown like this at all for route navigation. This screen is actually used to preview a A-B route. But for testing I abused it to display my test route. Regardless, it was the only image I got to share I actually drove a route today
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@Steve-Lynch said in Skipping waypoint button.:
or we'll send a fleet of Triumph Tigers to run you off the road
Be careful, Steve, be VERY careful:
https://www.myrouteapp.com/blog/open/1168
@Drabslab
Great Blog.
I toyed with the idea of having a GS and had multiple test rides on the Standard GS1250. Very planted bike at low and high speeds. And seriously, who likes chain cleaning and maintenance,
In the end it came down money, and I just couldn't justify the cost difference Vs Specification between the Beemer and the Triumph Tiger 900 Rally Pro.
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@Steve-Lynch @Drabslab That fleet of Tigers would be fun! I can handle some teasing
Would like to share with you that I actually drove a test route with Navigation Next!
The UI is still a very early version and I’m not even sure if it will be shown like this at all for route navigation. This screen is actually used to preview a A-B route. But for testing I abused it to display my test route. Regardless, it was the only image I got to share I actually drove a route today
@Corjan-Meijerink waw, first test drive, that is progress. Careful when test driving, staring at the little screen can be dangerous.
