Another Erratic Routing Incident
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@brian-mcg I saw this issue on MRA because there is the discrepancy between the road layout on the HERE map and the actual location of the road itself. In the nutshell, there is an error in the road layout on the HERE map. With respect, the error on HERE has nothing to do with the overall architecture of the product. An error is an error, and I happened to run across it.
I agree with you that what makes MRA unique are the different Routeplanner base map options and overlays. Routeplanner in particular is an incredible product that I use for 90% of my desktop route creation. I occasionally still use Garmin Basecamp and inRoute for special case situations, but Routeplanner is definitely my go-to.
Back to this situation: in this case I was only using HERE. That was HERE on the Desktop synced to HERE on the app. There weren't any user related errors triggered by injecting other base maps into the equation. Nothing outside of HERE came into play.
The bottom line?? There was a map error and I didn't catch it. If I had interogated the route on my HERE map with OSM and Google overlays I probably would have caught the route-to-road discrepancy in that section with the waypoint. It's not something I normally do (again, I shouldn't have to) but I got bit will do the additional step in the future.
@John-S-Parry in the "Toolkit" menu the function "Compare route with" is very helpful when deciding where to place points
where the 3 route calculations (Here, TomTom & OSM) overlay each other, you can be pretty sure that is where the road really is, & regardless of which navigation system you use, you will cross/passover that point when actually riding your route
BlackView BV7100, Android 12
Navigate "Routes as Tracks" in Offline mode with Offline Maps
No Wifi, no internet, no interruptions, works well -
@John-S-Parry in the "Toolkit" menu the function "Compare route with" is very helpful when deciding where to place points
where the 3 route calculations (Here, TomTom & OSM) overlay each other, you can be pretty sure that is where the road really is, & regardless of which navigation system you use, you will cross/passover that point when actually riding your route
@Brian-McG Yes, the Toolkit compare is a handy function. For safety, you definitely want to place waypoints where the other base maps agree.
Having to worry about the accuracy of a base map (any map) is a new concept for me. I've developed hundreds of routes in Basecamp (HERE) and inRoute (Apple), executed on Garmin GPS units, and have never encountered this. I know -- different environments, different behaviors.
I don't plan to use the MRA Next app again anytime soon, so at this point it's a non-issue. As I type, I'm setting up a new Garmin Zumo XT3, and that's going to be my primary route execution layer. Like I have been doing with my Zumo XT, I'll execute routes developed in MRA using the OSM base map. I've been snake bit using MRA HERE too many times.
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@John-S-Parry in the "Toolkit" menu the function "Compare route with" is very helpful when deciding where to place points
where the 3 route calculations (Here, TomTom & OSM) overlay each other, you can be pretty sure that is where the road really is, & regardless of which navigation system you use, you will cross/passover that point when actually riding your route
@Brian-McG I thought you might find this interesting. I got out to test executing the route using my new Garmin Zumo XT3. Like MRA at waypoint#7, the XT3 recognized that the actual road did not match the HERE generated route. Zumo XT's have an Off-Route Recalculation option that essentially stops routing until the route rejoins the actual road, which it did further up where the road straightened out. The route re-started automatically with no intervention required on my part.
At the same time (side-by-side), I executed the route using the MRA Phone app. I had been playing with Nav Functional settings on the app to try to correct the "turn around" behavior from my first attempt. I enabled the "Skip Waypoints automatically" hoping it would ignore WP#7 and continue onward to WP#8 as it normally would. Well, that didn't work like I thought it would. The skip didn't kick in immediately. It wasn't until I was almost on top of WP#8 before I got a message, and then when I passed WP#8, the app tried to turn me around back to it. It was getting unworkable, so I stopped the route on the app altogther.
I'm going to change things up on the app again to try to get a successful run through that segment:
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Switch to "Offline Navigation" from Online -- I don't know if this will change any behavior, but it's worth it to see if anything changes.
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"Skip Waypoints automatically" turned OFF -- Maybe a manual skip when the problem with WP#7 first appears will give me a clean path to waypoint#8.
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"Automatic recalculations" -- I was considering turning that option ON, but my fear is that it will trigger MRA trying to turn me around. If all else fails, maybe I change that on a subsequent attempt.
When getting ready to start the route on the app, it's clear that that it knows ahead of time about the issue:
It looks like it has already decided to turn around at WP#7, and double back counterclockwise to the main road (Kanan Road) to reach WP#8. That's not what I want, but....
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@Brian-McG I thought you might find this interesting. I got out to test executing the route using my new Garmin Zumo XT3. Like MRA at waypoint#7, the XT3 recognized that the actual road did not match the HERE generated route. Zumo XT's have an Off-Route Recalculation option that essentially stops routing until the route rejoins the actual road, which it did further up where the road straightened out. The route re-started automatically with no intervention required on my part.
At the same time (side-by-side), I executed the route using the MRA Phone app. I had been playing with Nav Functional settings on the app to try to correct the "turn around" behavior from my first attempt. I enabled the "Skip Waypoints automatically" hoping it would ignore WP#7 and continue onward to WP#8 as it normally would. Well, that didn't work like I thought it would. The skip didn't kick in immediately. It wasn't until I was almost on top of WP#8 before I got a message, and then when I passed WP#8, the app tried to turn me around back to it. It was getting unworkable, so I stopped the route on the app altogther.
I'm going to change things up on the app again to try to get a successful run through that segment:
-
Switch to "Offline Navigation" from Online -- I don't know if this will change any behavior, but it's worth it to see if anything changes.
-
"Skip Waypoints automatically" turned OFF -- Maybe a manual skip when the problem with WP#7 first appears will give me a clean path to waypoint#8.
-
"Automatic recalculations" -- I was considering turning that option ON, but my fear is that it will trigger MRA trying to turn me around. If all else fails, maybe I change that on a subsequent attempt.
When getting ready to start the route on the app, it's clear that that it knows ahead of time about the issue:
It looks like it has already decided to turn around at WP#7, and double back counterclockwise to the main road (Kanan Road) to reach WP#8. That's not what I want, but....
@John-S-Parry I know a bit about garmin routing, not a fan, ditched my XT2 because the recalculation function just does not work, but that’s another thread!
What you describe is not surprising, if a point is a long way off a route most nav devices wont recognise that you have gone through that point
It sounds like the XT3 is clever enough to recognise you are back on the correct path/track after you have passed point # 7 which is something MRA does not do
Auto skipping of points in MRA is not perfect but it does sort of work,
I believe it attempts to direct you back at least 2 or 3 times to a missed point, i.e. it will recalculate 2 or 3 times to take you back, if you ignore these new instructed paths 2 or 3 times then the auto skip function kicks in & the route calculation will resume heading to your next point
In you case point #8 is not a great distance from point #7 & there are not many options for MRA to recalculate back to #7 before you hit #8 hence what you experiencedas for your ideas
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this should have no effect on this issue
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I would recommend keeping auto skip on, it just requires a bit of patience to let it do its thing
it would be better if MRA was as clever as a garmin / tomtom & recognised it was back on track but the MRA devs have not figured out how to do that......yet!
the fact that points are sometimes missed by nav systems is just one of those things & is why remote controllers for phones running MRA are probably so popular, it is a quick lift of a finger & press of a button to manually skip a point
I loved my Tomtom because it could only navigate tracks so no Via or shaping points to miss but that sort of track navigation also has its limits -
"Automatic recalculations" is for when you deviate from a route/track, it will try & recalculate a path back to the route/track, it should not really be relevant here but its worth experimenting, maybe point #7 is far enough off route that its considered a deviation if you stay on the road
Interesting the app has recognised something is amiss, odd the way it has tried to resolve it
BlackView BV7100, Android 12
Navigate "Routes as Tracks" in Offline mode with Offline Maps
No Wifi, no internet, no interruptions, works well -
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@John-S-Parry I know a bit about garmin routing, not a fan, ditched my XT2 because the recalculation function just does not work, but that’s another thread!
What you describe is not surprising, if a point is a long way off a route most nav devices wont recognise that you have gone through that point
It sounds like the XT3 is clever enough to recognise you are back on the correct path/track after you have passed point # 7 which is something MRA does not do
Auto skipping of points in MRA is not perfect but it does sort of work,
I believe it attempts to direct you back at least 2 or 3 times to a missed point, i.e. it will recalculate 2 or 3 times to take you back, if you ignore these new instructed paths 2 or 3 times then the auto skip function kicks in & the route calculation will resume heading to your next point
In you case point #8 is not a great distance from point #7 & there are not many options for MRA to recalculate back to #7 before you hit #8 hence what you experiencedas for your ideas
-
this should have no effect on this issue
-
I would recommend keeping auto skip on, it just requires a bit of patience to let it do its thing
it would be better if MRA was as clever as a garmin / tomtom & recognised it was back on track but the MRA devs have not figured out how to do that......yet!
the fact that points are sometimes missed by nav systems is just one of those things & is why remote controllers for phones running MRA are probably so popular, it is a quick lift of a finger & press of a button to manually skip a point
I loved my Tomtom because it could only navigate tracks so no Via or shaping points to miss but that sort of track navigation also has its limits -
"Automatic recalculations" is for when you deviate from a route/track, it will try & recalculate a path back to the route/track, it should not really be relevant here but its worth experimenting, maybe point #7 is far enough off route that its considered a deviation if you stay on the road
Interesting the app has recognised something is amiss, odd the way it has tried to resolve it
@Brian-McG Well, I just ran the route again, running the XT3 and MRA Next app on my phone in parallel. Success! I suspect (it's just my best guess) that skipping WP#7 manually instead waiting for "Skip Waypoints automatically" to kick in was the difference. The first time around, it really did take (in my mind) too long for the skip to trigger, which created problems around WP#8 that doomed the route. I agree that the "Offline Navigation" probably didn't affect what happened with WP#7, but I needed it any way for the second half of the route, where cell coverage was spotty and sometimes non-excitant returning back over the mountains.
As for the XT3, instead of just letting the route 'sleep' until auto rejoining further up the road, I instead selected off-route recalculate just to see the result. On the XT's I almost never issue a recalculate (that's another discussion), so it was an additional learning experience too. Like MRA, it recalculated back to the route as originally intended.
I'm sure we could have a spirited discussion on the pros-and-cons of a dedicated Garmin GPS vs. the MRA phone app. They both have relative advantages/disadvantages, and a lot depends on where and how you ride. For me, the XT3 will mostly be my first choice. But you're correct -- that's better left to a separate dedicated thread.
Anyway, thanks for your time on this. I've learned a lot about the app going through this process. Not all scenarios can be documented, and learning by doing is the only solution. At least I'm comfortable enough now to use either the XT3 or the app based on the situation.
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@Brian-McG Well, I just ran the route again, running the XT3 and MRA Next app on my phone in parallel. Success! I suspect (it's just my best guess) that skipping WP#7 manually instead waiting for "Skip Waypoints automatically" to kick in was the difference. The first time around, it really did take (in my mind) too long for the skip to trigger, which created problems around WP#8 that doomed the route. I agree that the "Offline Navigation" probably didn't affect what happened with WP#7, but I needed it any way for the second half of the route, where cell coverage was spotty and sometimes non-excitant returning back over the mountains.
As for the XT3, instead of just letting the route 'sleep' until auto rejoining further up the road, I instead selected off-route recalculate just to see the result. On the XT's I almost never issue a recalculate (that's another discussion), so it was an additional learning experience too. Like MRA, it recalculated back to the route as originally intended.
I'm sure we could have a spirited discussion on the pros-and-cons of a dedicated Garmin GPS vs. the MRA phone app. They both have relative advantages/disadvantages, and a lot depends on where and how you ride. For me, the XT3 will mostly be my first choice. But you're correct -- that's better left to a separate dedicated thread.
Anyway, thanks for your time on this. I've learned a lot about the app going through this process. Not all scenarios can be documented, and learning by doing is the only solution. At least I'm comfortable enough now to use either the XT3 or the app based on the situation.
@John-S-Parry yes the issues with garmins are all around the "recalculate" function, it destroyed multiple days touring for me, thats why the XT2 got ditched
As far as I am aware the XT3 uses the same route calculation algorithm so it may be newer & have some additional features but it is still the same flawed device, recalculate has to be offAs for your route being "doomed" around waypiont #8 that would surprise me, given time to sort itself out I would expect MRA to recover, at worst case MRA might need a manual skip or 2 to catch up
This is my third season using MRA & I have to say MRA is far more consistent & reliable than my XT 2
MRA is far from perfect, it does glitch & fail occasionally but if you have the original track/path displayed (white line) then you can normally recover pretty easilywhen my XT 2 failed to route, as it did a lot, it was often very difficult or impossible to recover
a garmin with the "recalculate" function enabled is frankly useless, my XT2 messed up 2 whole seasons worth of touring hence it sits at the bottom of a drawerBlackView BV7100, Android 12
Navigate "Routes as Tracks" in Offline mode with Offline Maps
No Wifi, no internet, no interruptions, works well -
@John-S-Parry yes the issues with garmins are all around the "recalculate" function, it destroyed multiple days touring for me, thats why the XT2 got ditched
As far as I am aware the XT3 uses the same route calculation algorithm so it may be newer & have some additional features but it is still the same flawed device, recalculate has to be offAs for your route being "doomed" around waypiont #8 that would surprise me, given time to sort itself out I would expect MRA to recover, at worst case MRA might need a manual skip or 2 to catch up
This is my third season using MRA & I have to say MRA is far more consistent & reliable than my XT 2
MRA is far from perfect, it does glitch & fail occasionally but if you have the original track/path displayed (white line) then you can normally recover pretty easilywhen my XT 2 failed to route, as it did a lot, it was often very difficult or impossible to recover
a garmin with the "recalculate" function enabled is frankly useless, my XT2 messed up 2 whole seasons worth of touring hence it sits at the bottom of a drawer@Brian-McG First, as far as my "doomed" statement, it goes back to the run where I had "Skip Waypoints automatically" enabled. As I mentioned, it didn't respond for WP#7 (too far delayed) until I was almost on top of WP#8. And then when I passed WP#8, the app started trying to re-route me back to WP#8. Nothing was making sense, so I stopped the route. Being on the road, I wasn't in any position to diagnose what I was experiencing. Safety first.
From my experience, I don't necessarily agree with the issues with Garmins are all around the "recalculate" function. I've been using Garmin GPS units since the BMW Nav4. I continued with the Nav5, Nav6, Zumo XT, and now the Zumo XT3. I skipped the XT2 for various reasons. Mostly, because Garmin was starting to change the focus of their GPS units. They're transitioning to trying to get all their products to communicate with each other (marketing/sales), and frankly, the XT2 was a bad first attempt. It made route creation more complex and troublesome. The XT3 retains much of the XT2 framework, but it's more stable, at least from the research I've done.
Continuing, Garmin Off-Route Recalculation is by no means perfect. But for the most part, it's been effective for me. I use it judiciously in situations where I'm confident that I know what to expect. Like any responsibility offloaded to Navigation SW, it's not a get out of jail free card for all situations. Hence, what I experienced with the MRA app "Skip Waypoints automatically" in this WP#7 situation. It didn't work. Sometimes, the best option is to do nothing, which the Garmin Zumos support. Wait until the GPS detects you're back on route, and it magically reengages. As you noted, this is a feature lacking in MRA.
For me, much comes down to routing philosophy. I believe routes are meant to be followed as planned. When I lead complex trips, I spend hours and hours researching how to construct a given route. I try to think of every contingency imaginable. So, what I see on my computer screen when I'm creating a route in MRA is what I expect to see and follow on my Garmin XT3 or the MRA app. Along this line, I never turn offroute auto-recalculation on within Garmins. I use the "Prompted" option which gives me the real-time choice of putting the route to sleep, or recalculate as I did on the last WP#7 run I described. My starting position is that I'd much rather find my own way back from a route deviation/issue. Again, when I create a route in MRA I want to follow it exactly, and if I do have to deviate from it, I want to decide how to get back on it. Planned deviations are what happens most of the time, and I trust myself with the Garmin sleep option more than most SW. Of course, the complexity of off-route situation dictates approach. That's a complex topic in and of itself.
There are many more important issues than offroute recalculation when deciding between phone navigation and a GPS. For instance, the quality of the navigation map isn't given enough attention. Just one example -- the Garmin 3D Terrain map imposed on the detailed street map is striking. It could be my ignorance, but I haven't found an MRA map view that's even close. And the "Up Ahead" feature is a subject in and of itself. I can tell stories on the value of this Garmin specific function. I haven't even got into the physical durability of a standalone GPS vs. a phone. Living in a hot climate, it's night and day.
I will continue to play with the MRA app. I'm a big believer in having backups of everything, and the app seems good enough to serve as a backup to the Zumo XT3 for route execution if something happens to it on a trip.
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Brian: Your XT2 experiment obviously didn't turn out well, and I perfectly get your frustration. You didn't mention having experience with previous Garmin devices, so I'm guessing this was your first (and probably last) experience.
As I mentioned in my last post, the XT2 was Garmin's first serious attempt to connect their devices together. Architecturally, they try to attempt this using what they call the Explore DB that exists in their Server Cloud. The problem with Explore is that it can seriously alter a route. If you read Garmin forums, it's been the source of endless mind-numbing frustration.
Most XT2 users fall into it without even knowing. During installation of the Garmin Tread app, you're asked if you want to use external storage. On the surface, who would like that? Answer yes, and you go down a rat hole that many users regret. Knowing the history of Explore, I said NO when prompted in Tread. The only thing I use Tread for is Traffic/Weather alerts, and a really slick connection for my Headsets to XT3 (I have both Cardo and Sena Helmets). That's it. Furthermore, I manually copy all my GPX routes (wired) directly from my computer to the GPX folder on my SD Card within the XT3. Of course, it's recalculated on the XT3 side, but no manipulation by any other layer.
I'm guessing Explore is the source of having all your routes messed up. If you ever want to get a degree in everything Zumo, check out the following website:
It's a treasure chest of everything Zumo XT, and a must resource for anybody who owns a Zumo or is thinking about it.
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Brian: Your XT2 experiment obviously didn't turn out well, and I perfectly get your frustration. You didn't mention having experience with previous Garmin devices, so I'm guessing this was your first (and probably last) experience.
As I mentioned in my last post, the XT2 was Garmin's first serious attempt to connect their devices together. Architecturally, they try to attempt this using what they call the Explore DB that exists in their Server Cloud. The problem with Explore is that it can seriously alter a route. If you read Garmin forums, it's been the source of endless mind-numbing frustration.
Most XT2 users fall into it without even knowing. During installation of the Garmin Tread app, you're asked if you want to use external storage. On the surface, who would like that? Answer yes, and you go down a rat hole that many users regret. Knowing the history of Explore, I said NO when prompted in Tread. The only thing I use Tread for is Traffic/Weather alerts, and a really slick connection for my Headsets to XT3 (I have both Cardo and Sena Helmets). That's it. Furthermore, I manually copy all my GPX routes (wired) directly from my computer to the GPX folder on my SD Card within the XT3. Of course, it's recalculated on the XT3 side, but no manipulation by any other layer.
I'm guessing Explore is the source of having all your routes messed up. If you ever want to get a degree in everything Zumo, check out the following website:
It's a treasure chest of everything Zumo XT, and a must resource for anybody who owns a Zumo or is thinking about it.
sorry @John-S-Parry this has nothing to do with getting routes/files onto a garmin & I know that explorer & just about every piece of connecting software garmin saysdecides is flavour of the year is a pile of ........
I do have experience of Gamins going back multi - mutli years, the routing algorithm has not changed
the advice not to enable the recalculate function is decades oldas for the zumo forums lmao https://zumouserforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=18008&hilit=bmcg#p18008
BlackView BV7100, Android 12
Navigate "Routes as Tracks" in Offline mode with Offline Maps
No Wifi, no internet, no interruptions, works well -
sorry @John-S-Parry this has nothing to do with getting routes/files onto a garmin & I know that explorer & just about every piece of connecting software garmin saysdecides is flavour of the year is a pile of ........
I do have experience of Gamins going back multi - mutli years, the routing algorithm has not changed
the advice not to enable the recalculate function is decades oldas for the zumo forums lmao https://zumouserforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=18008&hilit=bmcg#p18008
@Brian-McG @brian-mcg You're right. This has nothing directly to do with transferring files other than it being one of the pieces that ensure Zumos operate correctly as navigation devices. If that doesn't interest you, so be it.
BTW, Garmin GPS routing algorithms have changed over the years, pre-Zumo you could take a Basecamp route calculation to the bank in that it would 100% match when recalculated in the Garmin GPS. That's no longer the case. I'm surprised you didn't know this given your "mult-multi years" Garmin experience.
To the topic, this discussion has everything to do with:
- The HERE map not placing the road where it actually is.
- The MRA app recognizing the map discrepancy, but the Web Routeplanner not showing any overt alert. Sync should actually mean Sync.
- The MRA "Skip Waypoints automatically" enabled not working in this scenario.
I was able to dynamically enable the XT3 to successfully recalculate at WP#7, so what's with the blanket "advice not to enable the recalculate function is decades old"? Nothing is absolute, yet you're hanging your hat on it. Odd.
I'm trying to be transparent and reasonable, and I can say with complete honestly that the XT3 worked better than the MRA app in successfully routing the section from WP#7 to WP#8. If this had not been a verification test, and I was just routing with the XT3 (forgetting the app), I probably wouldn't have known there was a problem at all. I would have been on the straighter section on top of the mountain ridge before being able to look down at the route, and I wouldn't have seen that the XT3 handled the situation without any intervention.
Again, thank you for helping me unravel what happened. We obviously don't agree on some things, but I appreciate the input you provided.
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