@con-hennekens Could the terrain, roads and traffic conditions we usually inhabit inform our varied navigation habits, perhaps?

I think your comparison of circumstances is quite correct. However I am living in the far south (as far as you can speak of that in the Netherlands ) with German Eifel and Belgium Ardennes in less than an hour drive away. I have been riding for years without audible guidance, so I am probably more used to do without it than many others. But in my experience, the more unpredictable the road gets, the better it is to look at the map at your own chosen time. That gives you knowledge about the road ahead and prevents having to look at the screen when it is necessary to have eyes on the road. I ride in landscape mode, so I have better sight on side roads too.

@con-hennekens Could the terrain, roads and traffic conditions we usually inhabit inform our varied navigation habits, perhaps?

Absolutely. I know I vary my habits based on where I'm riding. If I am within a town I am watching the GPS more often, eyeing the side roads and distance to my next turn. When I'm in more rural and countryside locations I look at the GPS less often.

Netherlands: limited elevation changes, high proportion of fairly straight roads, few roadside hedges, extensive lines of sight, high traffic densities. (Apologies for the generalisation here, but its based on limited personal experience.)

My part of the U.K. (Welsh borders): wide and sudden elevation changes, frequent corners - often tight and with decreasing radius, roadside hedgerows the norm and often high, restricted sight lines, relatively low traffic densities.

I’m sure that’s very simplistic and, of course, many of us travel widely so experience a greater range of conditions. Throw in experience and training, etc… But maybe there’s a grain of truth in there?

Could it be that those in the Netherlands do tend to have just that little bit more time to look at a screen?

It's very laggy in the Android version also as I mentioned in my previous post. I tend to look at my screen often to get the curvature of the road ahead but even then I rely on the voice to alert me to an upcoming turn and it lags pretty far behind.

It's funny that people have such different habits how they use navigation. To me the voice-guidance is merely a signal to go watch the route. A simple beep would suffice. Like my ancient Streetpilot 2610 did . In that regard I am not really aware of any lag, but I am not really listening to the voice.

However if it is such a thing for many users, it would be nice if something could be done about that. I cannot imagine that it is rocketscience to do that. Tweaking some developer parameters...

Where the problem(s) lies is anybody’s guess. I had thought it might be related to gps signal, but I’ve had issues in areas with great coverage yet good performance in mountains and forested areas where skies are limited, including when using the Garmin GLO2 mentioned previously (able to use many more satellites, so accuracy and coverage improved and faster to calculate location).
Some kind of issue with speech engines (e.g. conflict between any in Navigation and those used by Android and iOS devices) which might be eradicated by adopting an alternative? Probably not, given the variabilities in occurrence? These are just shots in the dark on my part. My knowledge of such stuff is very limited indeed.

I wonder what, if any, questions are being asked by the app developers in seeking a solution? They are far better placed to look in the right direction, ask the right questions, find answers and to test them… Though could part of the problem lie in testing? What works in an isolated ‘sand box’ kind of environment is one thing, but I wonder how much real world testing has been and is being carried out?

It would be good to see some input from MRA executives on this problem, along with some commitment to rectifying it, and on this forum, rather than spending their time drip feeding what seems to me to be ‘high hopes and thin air’ on Farcebook.

@pad-0 said in MRA Navigation and downloaded maps.:

Concerning the voice-guidiance, perhaps it could be that the IOS version here also has more trouble following the movement, I am unsure because I can't compare.

It's very laggy in the Android version also as I mentioned in my previous post. I tend to look at my screen often to get the curvature of the road ahead but even then I rely on the voice to alert me to an upcoming turn and it lags pretty far behind.

I take your point about “bloody dangerous” and “respectful”. I do feel very strongly about both the issue and lack of action and do feel that being abrupt is valid here though. Particularly as, having read the ‘Next’ blog referred to elsewhere today, it seems that MRA are talking 2023 season as a target for introduction. This needs sorting yesterday! For MRA not to have not done so could be seen as rather worse than disrespectful to to its customers.

Your quoting me on viewing the road seems to twist my words just a little… I was addressing information from viewing screen vs road. Naturally, I do agree that eyes on road is by far #1. However, good voice guidance and judicious use of screen are complementary both to it and one another. The length of time spent looking at the screen and the timing of it being crucial: voice guidance helps reduce the former and improve the latter

I’m happy to live with our differing viewpoints on how best to ride or drive. And I’m quite sure you are too.

Yes of course, as long as it is mutual respectful. In fact I think you brought up quite a few valid "challenges" for MRA to address.

Concerning the voice-guidiance, perhaps it could be that the IOS version here also has more trouble following the movement, I am unsure because I can't compare. Personally I think it is quite dangerous to just fly by voice-guidance, because it has by far not enough differentiation between different circumstances. Therefore I think that a glance at the screen at a moment you choose yourself is much more safe.

Stating that MRA Navigation is "bloody dangerous" is in my opinion reaching the boundary of respectfulness. Precisely because you already said yourself: "viewing the road and surrounding environment is vastly more informative" than any form of guidance, and that should ALWAYS have priority #1

On the words vs image (there’s a song about that!), sure, I agree. But I’m not for a moment suggesting otherwise. My ’case’ is that viewing the road and surrounding environment is vastly more informative than the screen view, not least because it’s live, plus such things as vanishing points can be utilised. We are always potentially small fractions of a second away from disaster and, in my view, anything but cursory glances at a screen are undesirable.

If voice guidance is late, vague or even completely absent (which I have found to be a quite frequent trait of Navigation) and we are caused to look at the screen often and unnecessarily, that’s not some ‘inconvenience’, it’s a major flaw. A user’s choice, on the other hand, to not use voice guidance is akin to the aforementioned option to turn certain Garmin sat nav functions on and off, is it not? Choice vs no choice…

And, yes, advance guidance is sometimes given well before a turn but, equally often, in many environments there are multiple junctions between that announcement and the intended turn. I feel that these, while undeniably useful as a ‘heads up’, are no substitute for well timed and sufficiently clear and detailed follow up guidance.

Due to endless glitches and complete failures, most of my use of the Navigation app has been as a test and in circumstances when I knew routes anyway and didn’t need navigation. I have never felt sufficiently confident in the reliability of the app to venture out without my Garmin on board when I did require navigation (however did we get anywhere before sat nav?🤪). In some circumstances I‘d have been ‘up the creek’ had I tried to rely on Navigation. As someone who really does want MRA to be successful in developing and providing a genuine alternative to expensive dedicated sat nav devices, I find that hugely disappointing…

But, as it stands, Navigation is not just disappointingly inadequate in my experience, it has the inbuilt potential to be bloody dangerous. And yet, despite increasing evidence (via support tickets and this forum at least) that this is a widespread user experience, I have not seen so much as a word from MRA to acknowledge the problem, let alone any effort to fix it. Why?

The words are however often not spoken clearly. Often I hear in "150 metre" the "One Hundred" and the "fifty" spoken simultaneously. At first I thought it was a phone problem, but my new phone does the same.

This happens to me quite often as well!

Generally, though, and certainly on my preferred road types, I think all the hazards and developing situations around me is where my attention needs to be, not forced into screen gazing due to badly timed voice guidance.

Of course attention needs to be focused on the road. But having a glance on the display at a self chosen moment, and thus knowing (without auditive assistance) where to go helps A LOT in avoiding dangerous situations. I have been running my Garmins for many years without headset in my helmet, and thus driving on the screen only. In my opinion a glimpse on your screen tells a lot more than a 1000 words.

But I share the thought that the spoken assistance is sometimes a bit late. It has never happened to me AFTER the turn though. And mostly it has been said already a few 100mtres earlier.

The words are however often not spoken clearly. Often I hear in "150 metre" the "One Hundred" and the "fifty" spoken simultaneously. At first I thought it was a phone problem, but my new phone does the same.

I agree that Android MRA Navigation is also laggy when using voice navigation. Basically I turn it off.
Haven’t noticed any lag in the actual GPS location however.

I took a trip to Loomies Cafe in Arundel yesterday.
My plan was to take the iPhone 6 Plus as well as the Zumo XT.
Whilst prepping the routes with WiFi on to ensure they were available in MRA NavigationI had a strange thing happen.
When hitting the exit button it was actually shutting the Navigation App down not going back to the Route page.
Had to uninstall-reinstall the App.
Didn’t bother taking the iPhone with me.

Regarding keeping eyes on the road the Zumo XT position on the Tiger 900 Rally Pro is perfect for a quick glance.

I didn’t intend to imply that certain functions should be prevented by design, not my bag at all! Rather, I mean that effective design and function should render all but essential screen gazing unnecessary. I believe that any disabling features should be discretionary and firmly under user control, such as those found on Garmin (some/all?) sat navs.

We do differ on the use of screens to assess the road. Long ago, I encountered the term ‘the map is not the territory’. I think this is equally pertinent to sat nav views. My preference is to keep my head up and my eyes on the road but, hey, that’s just me. We ride our own ride, yes?

On the matter of looking at screens while on the move, surely this is generally undesirable from a safety perspective and both hardware and software need to be designed to minimise the need to?

I see where you're coming from, however the is in the details here. My smartphone is located in the middle of my handlebar such, that looking at my Speedo equals looking at my phone's screen. That being said, when one looks continuously on their Speedo, you point is stil valid, so it makes sense for me to mention that I purposely look at my screen not due to the app malfunctioning on its basics(like you suggest it may be due to the late voice guidance), but rather because I provides me with information regarding the curve of the upcoming road. I use the app in landscape 3d, so I can see quite far ahead. This however is completely unnecessary in urban conditions, so that's why I merely ride like this on intended curvy roads. Twisties as we know them.

I do look around extensively. In the Netherlands during the mandatory driving lessons to acquire the license, we are trained to be on the lookout for danger all around us. Every car driver is a hired assassin haha! 🤭 So imho for me, I'm not necessarily creating additional risks for myself, since I'm aware of the actual potential dangers ahead.

Regarding the hardware or software limiting this possibility at all: no no no. I'm no fan of some software or hardware prohibiting a certain use. I'd to like to keep stuff in my own hands.

On the matter of looking at screens while on the move, surely this is generally undesirable from a safety perspective and both hardware and software need to be designed to minimise the need to?
I’m no ‘purist’ here and willingly acknowledge that it’s a reasonable thing to do sometimes, e.g. though I try to avoid UK and Irish motorways as much as is practical, I find junction layout views very useful sometimes, and I prefer to rely on sat nav/app speed readings rather than the speedometer, particularly on my ageing VFR800.

Generally, though, and certainly on my preferred road types, I think all the hazards and developing situations around me is where my attention needs to be, not forced into screen gazing due to badly timed voice guidance.

I wonder is this another problem with the iOS app only , or do users of the Android version of Navigation experience it too?

Unfortunately I find the voice guidance being too late for my liking all the time, and sometimes like mentioned by @Mopetenpit extremely late on my Android OnePlus 6 as well! Like, turns being guided while already turning. Lol. I do however look at my screen considerable often to get a glimpse of the road curves ahead, so most of the time I find it not to be any practical problem, however, the app should just not have such quirks.

I can’t imagine why this occurs. It’s not something I’ve ever experienced with Garmin sat navs though.

I wonder is this another problem with the iOS app only , or do users of the Android version of Navigation experience it too? (I have experienced it while using both iPhone and iPad - the latter being a wifi only model and running with a Garmin GLO2 GPS/GLONASS unit which I believe is far superior to the onboard Apple chip by some margin in terms of speed, signal and accuracy.)

One other thing I ran into was it not updating the distance to one of my turns upon approach. To be fair this was after a lunch stop where I left the app open and running in the background so I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it. I noticed the distance to the next turn was stuck at 3300 ft and was not updating. Once I was at the turn it said "turn right" but at that point, it was too late and I was already passing the turn. Once it rerouted everything was fine for the rest f the ride. So I am not sure if this was just a memory issue with it running in the background during my hour lunch stop or what.

Also had this phenomenon several times, not often, but every now and then. I'm writing this to remind the MRA team of the problem as well. I thought it was just an isolated case with my iPhone....

Peter

Yes, the highlighted and un-highlighted routes are on the Android version only.

Ouch, that of course I did not know, and I agree with @PAD-0 that it is very strange that the IOS and Android app differ in this (and probably more) respect(s).

I can also confirm that the highlighting ONLY happens when no internet-connection is available. The Off-Line mode has to do with maps and traffic-info, not with the loading of routes.

@pad-0 said in MRA Navigation and downloaded maps.:

Because with my iOS apps, use of offline mode in conjunction with airplane mode results in wall to wall buffering!

Do you mean that Navigation keeps saying "calculating"? I get that often in on-line as well as off-line mode. But it disappears shortly after going on route. This is certainly one of the quirks...

One other thing I ran into was it not updating the distance to one of my turns upon approach. To be fair this was after a lunch stop where I left the app open and running in the background so I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it. I noticed the distance to the next turn was stuck at 3300 ft and was not updating. Once I was at the turn it said "turn right" but at that point, it was too late and I was already passing the turn. Once it rerouted everything was fine for the rest f the ride. So I am not sure if this was just a memory issue with it running in the background during my hour lunch stop or what.

Rerouting worked much better than on my TomTom. During my ride, I came across a closed road due to a collapsed bridge and it instantly rerouted like a champ. It also rerouted my missed turns very well.

All-in-all I was pleased with how it worked. For my next ride I will try using offline mode to test that out.

Just for clarification I was using a Pixel 5a and created my ride in Routeplanner using the HERE map.

@stefanhummelink To clarify further, can you confirm that the above relates to your using an Android device?

Yes indeed, I have an Android phone. Oneplus 6.